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1942 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF SHELBY COUNTY, TENNESSEE FOR THE THIRTIETH JUDICIAL DISTRICT AT MEMPHIS _______________________________________________
CORETTA SCOTT KING, et al,
Plaintiffs,
Vs. Case No. 97242
LOYD JOWERS, et al,
Defendants. _______________________________________________
PROCEEDINGS December 7th, 1999 VOLUME XIII _______________________________________________
Before the Honorable James E. Swearengen, Division 4, judge presiding.
_______________________________________________
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD COURT REPORTERS Suite 2200, One Commerce Square Memphis, Tennessee 38103 (901) 529-1999
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1943
- APPEARANCES -
For the Plaintiff: DR. WILLIAM PEPPER Attorney at Law New York City, New York
For the Defendant:
MR. LEWIS GARRISON Attorney at Law Memphis, Tennessee
Court Reported by: MR. BRIAN F. DOMINSKI Certificate of Merit Registered Professional Reporter Daniel, Dillinger, Dominski, Richberger & Weatherford 22nd Floor One Commerce Square Memphis, Tennessee 38103
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1944
- INDEX -
WITNESS: PAGE/LINE NUMBER
JAMES EARL RAY DEPOSITION EXCERPTS READ...........1945, 10
BETTY JEAN SPATES DEPOSITION EXCERPTS READ............2105, 10
MOTION FOR DIRECTED VERDICT............................. 2131, 1
EXHIBIT PAGE/LINE
Exhibit 37..................... 2103, 12 Exhibit 38..................... 2104, 19 Exhibit 39..................... 2130, 6
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1945
THE COURT: We're ready for the
jury.
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: Good morning. We
have some more excitement in store for you.
Mr. --
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, we'd
like to read the latter part of Mr. Ray's
deposition at this time.
THE COURT: All right.
(The conclusion of the March
12th, 1995, deposition of James Earl Ray was
read in its entirety to the jury with the
excerpts as noted as follows:)
MR. BLEDSOE: "James Earl Ray,
having been first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows, direct examination,
by Mr. Garrison.
Q. Mr. Ray, when we adjourned the
deposition yesterday, we had gotten to the
point where you had gone in, I believe, to
look at some rifles. I want to back up just
a bit before we start back with that and let
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1946
me ask you something.
Have you ever been known as
G-e-r-r-y, Gerry Ray? Have you ever used
that alias?
A. No, that's my brother's name.
Q. Okay. What about George Ray,
have you ever used that alias?
A. No, that's my father's name.
Q. Okay. What about Gery, Rayn,
R-a-y-n?
A. R-a-y-n? R-a-y-n-s -- you're
not talking about Ryan, R-y-a-n, are you?
Q. No, sir. I'm asking if you have
ever used the name of G-e-r-r-y, R-a-y-n?
A. No. That's another one --
that's my brother's alias.
Q. Okay. And what about G-e-r-r-y,
Gerry Raynes, R-a-y-n-e-s?
A. No, I have never heard of that
name.
Q. How about G-e-r-r-y,
R-a-i-n-e-s, have you ever used that alias?
A. No.
Q. Okay. What about Gerry Ryan,
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1947
R-y-a-n, have you ever used that alias?
A. No, I have never used that name.
Q. Okay. Going back just a bit
before we get back to where we were
yesterday. You came through Selma, Alabama
from New Orleans; am I right, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And you spent the night there,
didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. At the Mango (Phonetic) Hotel --
Motel?
A. Yes. It was on -- it was on a
road. It wasn't in no city or town. It was
just a motel on the road.
Q. And, in fact, Dr. King was there
at the same time, wasn't he?
A. No, he wasn't.
Q. You're sure about that?
A. Well, I have checked the
records, and he was somewhere -- 100 miles
from there or somewhere.
Q. Okay. Then from Selma you went
on to Birmingham, did you not, sir?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1948
A Yes.
Q. Okay. And Raul had told you he
would meet you in Birmingham?
A. At the Starlight, yes.
Q. Okay. And what was the purpose
of going to Birmingham first?
A. Well, I was supposed to meet him
in New Orleans. When I got there, I called
his contact number, and he told me to go
ahead and meet him in Birmingham, that he had
done went to Birmingham.
Q. Okay. And you were going to
meet at the Starlight in Birmingham?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you meet him?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then where did you go
from there?
A. We went from there to Atlanta.
Q. Okay. At this point had he
mentioned anything to you about any guns?
A. Yes. He mentioned them
previously, but I don't know just when all he
mentioned it. I know he mentioned it in New
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1949
Orleans. He may have mentioned it in
December of '67. He may have mentioned them
before that, but I know there was guns
mentioned in Mexico.
Q. What I'm wondering, Mr. Ray, is
this: If he had mentioned to you about guns
in New Orleans and Birmingham, what was the
reason you went to Atlanta and then back to
Birmingham to buy a gun?
A. Well, I don't know. He wanted
to go to Atlanta. I didn't ask him why he
wanted to go there.
Q. Okay. Did he ride with you to
Atlanta from Birmingham?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you spend the night
in Birmingham?
A. No. We left there -- I met him
at the Starlight, and we left there probably
10 or 15 minutes after I got there.
Q. To go on to Atlanta?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, you were in
Atlanta, and you stayed there. I believe you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1950
said the person that you -- at the place
where you were staying was intoxicated?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he ever see you with
Raul--
A. Yes.
Q. -- this gentleman?
He did see you with Raul?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Other than that gentleman
there at this location do you know if anyone
ever saw you with Raul at any point that you
know now who those people would have been?
A. Well, of course, these documents
are all classified. I think probably the
barmaid at the Starlight Lounge probably seen
us together because we was in there several
times, and also there was some people there
at the -- at this place where the intoxicated
landlord was in Atlanta.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Someone apparently gave a
statement to the FBI that they saw me with
someone else. But I give that to a reporter
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1951
named McClellan, WSM Television in about
1979. I give the document to him, and I
never did get it back.
Q. Well, according to the FBI
report, the gentleman who operated the
rooming house in Atlanta says he never saw
you with anyone else.
A. Well, I don't know. He stayed
drunk all the time, so it's difficult -- what
he saw and what he didn't see.
Q. Okay. Now, were getting back to
the gun. You had gone to the place, the
Aeromarine Supply, to buy a gun. And when
you got there, what time of day was it
roughly?
A. It must have been sometime
around -- between eleven and one o'clock.
Q. Okay. And what day of the --
was this April date the 2nd, 3rd, 4th? When
was this that you --
A. Well, this apparently was March
the 28th or 29th, and I know it was on a
Friday.
Q. When you went in there, did
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1952
someone say, can I wait on you or can I help
you? What was done?
A. Yes. Well, the salesman, you
know, he just asked me what I wanted and what
he could do for me, and --
Q. Okay. What did you later learn
his name to be?
A. I've forgotten now. There was a
salesman there, and I think there was also a
co-owner there, but I can't recall either one
of them's name.
Q. Okay. All right. You just --
you told him you wanted to purchase a gun for
deer hunting?
A. I think something about a large
bore deer rifle. I believe that was the --
Q. And did he have one behind the
counter or where did he get the gun from?
A. I really don't recall. It's
kind of a big -- well, it wasn't a warehouse,
but it was a fairly big place, and I don't
know where he got it at.
Q. Did he put the gun in your hands
and let you look at it and feel of it and see
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1953
how heavy it was?
A. I really can't recall. I think
he probably did show it -- hand it to me or
something like that. I wanted to make it
appear like I knew something about it
probably.
Q. And how long did you look at it
before you decided to purchase it?
A. Well, not very long.
Q. Well, five minutes, ten minutes,
fifteen?
A. Probably less than that,
probably a couple of minutes.
Q. Did you look at any mechanism on
the gun to see how it operated?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. All right. And did you look at
any other guns where you actually were shown
some other guns?
A. I looked at some guns on a rack
up over on the -- on the -- not on his side
of the counter, on my side of the counter.
They were -- I believe they were Mausers. It
was a foreign gun -- foreign made rifles, and
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1954
I asked him about the price of them, and --
Q. Did you actually handle those
guns?
A. I doubt it. I may have touched
one of them or something, but I don't believe
I handled them. No, I don't think so.
Q. Okay. How much did you pay for
this gun?
A. I really can't recall. It's
probably over $200 or somewhere around there,
I suppose.
Q. Okay. Now, you were in
Birmingham. And had Raul ridden from
Atlanta back to Birmingham with you?
A. From Birmingham -- how is --
Q. From Atlanta back to Birmingham.
You had gone back to Birmingham from
Atlanta to buy a gun?
A. Yes. He had ridden with me.
Q. He had waited where?
A. Where did he wait?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. He waited in the -- I'm kind of
inclined to think he waited in the Starlight
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1955
Club. And then I went and rented the motel,
the Five Points, and I think I picked him up.
I think he had something to do or
something. I'm not --- my memory is not too
well on this.
Q. Okay. When you purchased the
gun, then you had gone back to meet him?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he take the gun and
examine it and look down the scope and check
the mechanism and so forth?
A. Well, he looked it over, and I
don't know how close he looked it over, but
he just said it was the wrong type or the
wrong bore or something. And so that's when
I -- I had the brochure. So I just gave him
the brochure and, you know, just told him to
pick one out and I would exchange it.
Q. Mr. Ray, when you were in the --
the times you were in New Orleans, did you
ever go to where Raul lived?
A. No, I never did. I don't know
where he lived. I did contact him by
telephone.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1956
Q. Okay. Now, he gave you $700?
A. I think somewhere around $700,
yes. I think that -- I don't -- I think the
$700 wasn't just to purchase the gun. It was
for other things, but he didn't specify what
other things.
Q. Had you already purchased the
camera equipment then?
A. Yes, I had the camera equipment.
Q. Where did you purchase that?
A. I purchased all of it in
Birmingham except for one item, and I
couldn't get -- there was one item I couldn't
get. I think they ordered it from Chicago,
but I had to leave Birmingham before it
arrived.
Q. Okay. You left New Orleans and
had gone to Birmingham and then on to
Atlanta. How many times had you been in
Birmingham before this time?
A. Well, just the one time when I
was there in September -- no -- yes,
September, in the latter part of August, '67.
Q. Okay. And how many times had
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1957
you been in Atlanta before this time?
A. That's the only time I had ever
been there.
Q. And you hail never been in
Memphis other than just coming through maybe
up until --
A. Right. As I mentioned -- I
think I mentioned yesterday in 1955 I went
with my uncle to Florida, and he may have
went through some of those towns, but I don't
have any recollection of which towns he went
through.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, let me ask you
something. As you know, there was a map
found in Atlanta after the assassination.
You know that, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. It had some circles on it,
didn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever make a map of New
Orleans where you circled anything?
A. I circled some maps and made
marks on some maps, but I don't know just
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1958
which ones they were. I think Attorney
Pepper, he has some of the maps.
Q. What about a map of Birmingham,
did you ever make a map there and circle any
locations?
A. I really don't -- I really can't
recall.
Q. What about Memphis, did you ever
make one of it and circle any locations?
A. I didn't -- I don't think I had
a map of Memphis.
Q. Okay. You took the gun back to
Raul, and he said he wasn't satisfied with
it, and you called the Aeromarine Supply back
and told them you wanted to exchange it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go back over the same
day?
A. Yes. I took the rifle -- I took
the rifle back the same day, yes.
Q. Okay. And they told you to come
back and get another -- the next day when you
picked it up?
A. Yes, sometime the next morning.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1959
Q. Where did you stay that night in
Birmingham?
A. I stayed at the Five Points.
Q. Did Raul stay there with you?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Do you know where he stayed?
A. No. I think I took him down to
the -- to the post office. That was right
across the street from the Starlight, and I
don't know where he went.
Q. What time did you take him to
the post office?
A. That would be on Friday. Well,
it was after I came back from there. I
imagine it would be about three or four
o'clock.
Q. Then how did you know to meet
him the next day? Where did you know --
A. Where did I know where to --
Q. To meet Raul the next day. You
were going to meet him the next day or --
A. No, no. He give -- he give me
an address in Memphis, the New Rebel Motel.
Q. So you weren't going to meet him
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1960
anymore?
A. No, that was it. He said he was
going somewhere else.
Q. Now, we're at the point where
you haven't picked the gun up yet. Now, did
he see the gun anymore after -- I'm talking
about the second gun -- did he see it anymore
before you arrived in Memphis?
A. No.
Q. He never saw it anymore?
A. No, not after that.
Q. All right. Now, we're talking
about March the 28th or 29th. How long did
you stay in Birmingham before you left?
A. Well, I left there sometime the
next day after I got the rifle, which would
have either been the 29th or 30th.
Q. Of March?
A. Yes.
Q. And you left Birmingham and
drove toward Memphis?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Where did you stop at?
Where is the first stop you made after you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1961
left Birmingham?
A. I'm almost certain it was
Decatur.
Q. Stayed there one night?
A. Yes.
Q. When did he tell you to meet him
in Memphis?
A. That was on April 3rd.
Q. Okay. And then after -- you
stayed in Decatur one night, and where did
you stay there?
A. I don't know the name of the
motel.
Q. What was the next place you
stayed?
A. The next place I stayed would
have been the -- there is two towns up there.
One of them is Tuscumbia, and I don't --
Q. Florence and Muscle Shoals,
they're all three together there.
A. Well, Tuscumbia is right across
the -- right across the way from another
town. It's not Muscle Shoals. It's --
Q. It's not Florence --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1962
A. Tuscumbia is on the right-hand
side, and the other town is on the left-hand
side. I stayed in the town on the left-hand
side.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't know --
Q. Okay. You stayed there one
night?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You were driving the
Mustang?
A. Yes.
Q. And had the -- where was the gun
in the car? Was it in the trunk or up in the
seat, back seat or where?
A. No. It was in the trunk.
Q. Did you have any other gun?
A. I had another gun, but I didn't
have it with me.
Q. What kind of other gun did you
have?
A. Well, I had the .38 that I had
purchased in Birmingham, but I left it in the
rooming house. I had it buried downstairs.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1963
Q. Okay. When did you purchase it
in Birmingham?
A. The .38?
Q. The .38.
A. Well, sometimes -- when I
arrived there in August, the latter part of
August, I must have purchased it sometime in
September.
Q. And how did you do that?
A. I -- there was a want ad,
classifieds, from a private party.
Q. Okay. How much did you pay for
it?
A. I believe it was $75.
Q. Okay. You left then. Where was
the next stop you made after the stop in --
somewhere near Tuscumbia, Alabama?
A. I went to Corinth, Mississippi.
Q. And where did you stay there,
Mr. Ray?
A. I thought it was the Southern
Motel, but we have never been able to
establish it one way or another. Most of
these records have been -- some records have
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1964
been destroyed after we started checking on
them, the hotel registration cards.
Q. What day did Raul tell you to
meet him in Memphis at the Rebel --
A. It was on April 3rd.
Q. What time?
A. Well, he didn't give me a
specific time. He just told me to check in
there, and he would -- you know, he would
meet me there.
Q. And what name did he tell you to
check in under?
A. Well, I assumed -- he didn't
tell me any name. I assumed it would be Eric
Galt because I never checked in a motel
under, you know, a different name because the
police usually check your license plates at
the motels.
Q. Now, the car you were driving
was registered to Eric Galt, and you had an
Alabama driver's license?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You left Corinth,
Mississippi what date?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1965
A. Well, that would have been April
the 2nd.
Q. And drove on where from there?
A. I drove on to Memphis.
Q. Okay. How did you find the New
Rebel Motel?
A. Well, I didn't find it at that
time. I -- on April 2nd I checked into the
Desoto Motel, which is right across the line
from a -- from the -- from Memphis.
Q. Okay. And you spent the night
of April the 2nd there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Why did you go there?
A. Well, it wasn't April 3rd yet.
I was going to the New Rebel April 3rd.
Q. But why did you choose this one
in Mississippi?
A. Well, there is no specific
reason. I didn't want to stay downtown, and
so I just --
Q. But the New Rebel wasn't
downtown?
A. Well, it wasn't, but at that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1966
time I don't believe I knew where it was. I
think I found out the address the next day.
Q. Okay. Did you have any kind of
a map where you were using to get your
directions since you had never been in
Memphis?
A. I probably had a map of
Mississippi and Alabama, but I don't know. I
had so many maps. I had 20 or 30. I don't
recall just exactly. There is a list of all
the maps that I had, and the FBI has them,
but I can't recall, you know, maps of foreign
countries and whatever.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, when did you
find out Dr. King would be in Memphis?
A. When did I find out?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Well, I found out, I guess,
about April the -- April 4th. I would say
about 6:30.
Q. You didn't find out on April the
3rd he would be in Memphis or April the 2nd
he was planning to be in Memphis?
A. No, I didn't. I didn't know
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1967
anything about it.
Q. Well, now, you know the FBI
found a Memphis paper where it had a detailed
account of where he was going to be. You
know that, don't you?
A. That I had a Memphis paper?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes. I always buy a paper when
I go into town.
Q. Well, Mr. Ray, I was practicing
law back then right downtown, and there were
headlines every day where he was going to be.
Now, you knew he was going to be there,
didn't you?
A. No, I didn't. There is all
kinds of headlines in newspapers. They don't
particularly interest me, what the headlines
are.
Q. You didn't read the headlines --
it was all on the news, on the tv, all in the
headlines because I saw it every day and was
part of all this, and it was headlines --
everybody knew he was going to be there, all
the trouble they had. Now, you knew about
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1968
that, didn't you?
A. No, I had no idea about it. I
mean I probably knew about it if I read the
paper, but it didn't stick in my mind. If
the President would have been there, it
wouldn't have any -- you know, I wouldn't
have been interested in it.
Q. But you didn't know about all
the riots they were having down in downtown
that they had had a day or two before, and it
was kind of dangerous to be downtown and
everybody knew that? You didn't know about
that?
A. No. I just come into town.
Q. Well, it was all in the
newspapers. It was all on the news.
Everybody knew about it, on the national
news.
A. Everyone knew. I don't think
everyone knew about it. There is 250 million
people in the country. I doubt if --
Q. I doubt if there was very many
if they watched the news that didn't know
about it. And you're telling us you didn't
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1969
know about that?
A. No, I didn't. I may have knew
about it, but it didn't stick -- you know, it
didn't hang up in my memory or anything.
Q. Okay. Did you ever stay in the
Pontotoc Hotel?
A. Pontotoc in Memphis? No.
Q. You never did?
A. No.
Q. Okay. You left Alabama, arrived
at the Desoto Motel down in -- just across
the state line and stayed there one night?
A. Yes.
Q. What time did you get there?
A. It would have been sometime in
the afternoon because I was driving real slow
from Birmingham to Memphis. And I had
estimated it was sometime in the afternoon.
I didn't even -- I didn't even go into
Memphis proper that day. I just stayed on
the edge of town, and --
Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you
something. If you were in Corinth,
Mississippi -- there's a highway called
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1970
Highway 72. It's the only highway leading
toward Memphis, the main highway.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you take that?
A. That's apparently the one I
took, yes.
Q. Where did you get off of that to
go to Mississippi because you had to make a
detour off of that somewhere?
A. Well, I'm not familiar with
Memphis at that time. I'm still not, but I
just -- there was no reason for me to go
downtown.
Q. Did you drive into Tennessee?
A. Yes. I was in Memphis, yes.
Q. You actually drove into Memphis
before you went to the Desoto Motel?
A. Yes, the outskirts, yes.
Q. All right. You had gone on then
to the Desoto Motel, and what time did you
check out of there?
A. Well, whatever the time --
usually I stayed until they -- you have to
leave. It probably would have been twelve or
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1971
one o'clock whenever they --
Q. Okay. And then you proceeded
from there to the New Rebel Motel?
A. Yes.
Q. Out on Lamar?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Then how long were you
there before Raul appeared?
A. Well, I would say I got there
maybe one or two o'clock, and he appeared
sometime that night. I know it was raining,
and it must have been nine o'clock.
Q. You had a room there and had
your car parked close to it?
A. Yes, right in front of it.
Q. He just came and appeared?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What was the extent of
your conversation with him?
A. Well, he just came in. It had
been raining, and I think he had a raincoat
on, and we started talking. And he asked me
if I had brought the rifle up, and I said,
yes. And I don't remember all the small
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1972
talk. And then subsequently he told me to --
you know, he wanted me to meet him at a Jim's
Grill the next day at I think it was three
o'clock.
Q. Did he tell you where Jim's
Grill was located?
A. Yes. I think he had it wrote
down, the name and the street, but I don't --
Q. You still had the gun in your
possession in the car at that time?
A. No. I had -- the gun was in the
motel.
Q. Okay. Did he look at it?
A. Yes. He took it with him, yes.
Q. He said, this is the gun I want?
He had never seen it up to that point?
A. Well, he knew what it was
because he picked it out of the brochure.
Q. But he had never seen it up to
that point as far as you know up until this
time?
A. No. He had never seen it, not
that one, no.
Q. All right. And did he indicate
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1973
to you why he wanted to take the gun with him
since you had had it in your possession?
A. I assumed he wanted to show it
to someone.
Q. All right. Who did he say he
was going to show it to?
A. He didn't say. I just assumed
that because he was supposed to meet some,
you know, gun dealers.
Q. Okay. And he told you to meet
him at Jim's Grill the next day?
A. Yes.
Q. What time was it that he
appeared roughly?
A. Did I -- what time did I appear
there?
Q. What time did Raul appear at
the New Rebel Motel to see you?
A. Well, I would say it was around
nine o'clock.
Q. At night?
A. It was nighttime, yes.
Q. Okay. How did he get there?
A. I really don't know.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1974
Q. Okay. How long did he stay?
A. I don't think he stayed over 15
minutes at the most.
Q. He just told you to meet him the
next day at Jim's Grill?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And when he left,
how did he leave?
A. I really don't know. I didn't
pay no attention after he left. It was
raining, so I really wasn't interested in
knowing how he left.
Q. Mr. Ray, did you not find it
strange after all these months that this man
would just simply appear out of nowhere and
then vanish into nowhere? You never did see
him come up with anybody. You never saw
where he stayed all these months.
A. Well, I assume when someone is
involved in criminal activities, they don't,
you know, tell their associates everything
they're doing. I never saw him with anyone
except the individual in Nuevo Laredo,
Mexico, and I just never made any inquiries.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1975
I have had, you know, experience
with criminals, and usually if they're paying
you, you don't make any inquiries. I know if
I was paying someone, I wouldn't, you know,
be telling him all my personal business.
Q. All right. Then you stayed in
the New Rebel Motel that night, and left then
the next day at what time?
A. Well, whenever I checked out. I
think -- I would say it was about twelve or
one o'clock. I'm just estimating that.
Q. And where did you go then?
A. Well, I just drove around. I
just stalled around more or less until 3:00
o'clock or 3:30, and I don't know exactly
where I drove at. I know I was driving
around the edge of town. I think I went
across the Mississippi line or near the
Mississippi line. And subsequently I had a
flat tire, and I changed tires on the car.
Q. Where did you have a flat tire?
A. It was along the edge of
Memphis. It was -- it wasn't, you know,
downtown. I think it was -- it could have
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1976
been across the line of Mississippi, but it
was right on the edge of it. It wasn't no
residential district.
Q. Okay. Did you change the tire?
A. Yes. I just took the wheel off
and put another one on, yes.
Q. All right. Then where did you
go?
A. From there I intended to have a
meeting with Raul at the Jim's Grill. So I
drove to a commercial parking lot, which is
-- it's not downtown. I would say it's
about 10 or 12 blocks from downtown because I
could see the Memphis skyline. And I checked
in there, and I think I asked the attendant
something about Main Street or something, and
anyway -- I can't recall just exactly. So I
left and started walking toward downtown
Memphis.
Q. How did you know it was towards
downtown since you had never been there?
A. Well, I could see the tall
buildings in the general area down there, so
I assumed that was --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1977
Q. Okay. There are several streets
downtown with tall buildings. How did you
know which street to get on?
A. How did I know? I don't -- I
didn't particularly know. I just walked down
toward the -- is what you call the
residential -- the high rise --
Q. Okay.
A. I may have asked the attendant.
I don't know. I probably asked him something
about it.
Q. What was the weather like that
day?
A. It seemed to be all right. I
don't know whether --
Q. Was it raining or sun shining?
A. No, I don't believe it was
raining. I think the sun was shining as far
as I know.
Q. Okay. All right. Did you then
eventually arrive at Jim's Grill?
A. No, I didn't know where it was
at. I think I got -- when I got downtown, I
asked a policeman for directions about -- I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1978
think I asked him where South Main Street
was. I don't think I asked him where Jim's
Grill was. And he give me directions, and
then -- anyway, when I got on Main Street,
then I located Jim's Grill then.
Q. Okay. When you asked the
policeman for directions, how far was that
from Jim's Grill? I mean are we looking at a
block, half a block, ten blocks?
A. No. I think it was a little --
I would just guess it was eight or ten
blocks. I wasn't --
Q. Okay. Were you -- were you on
Main Street then?
A. I don't believe I was. I'm not
positive.
Q. And did you go to Jim's Grill?
A. No. I went -- I got on Main,
and I was going south on Main, and I stopped
at a -- it was a -- some type of a bar that
sold alcohol there, and I asked the lady --
now, this is on the right-hand side of Main
Street going south -- and I asked the barmaid
where Jim's Grill was. Now, I ordered a beer
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1979
while I was in there. And she told me it was
-- it was a couple -- a couple of blocks --
a block and a half or so down the street on
the other side of the street.
And I also -- it's just -- at
this time I also saw -- mentioned I saw the
two individuals that I mentioned yesterday
that I thought perhaps were -- well, you get
kind of -- you know, you're kind of nervous
under those conditions. Anyway, I thought
maybe they were -- they appeared to be
watching me or something.
Q. How were you dressed?
A. I just had a dark suit on.
Q. With a tie?
A. Yes.
Q. White shirt?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a coat with you,
overcoat?
A. No.
Q. It wasn't cold enough that day
to have an overcoat?
A. No, I don't believe it was.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1980
Q. Okay. Then where did you go?
Okay. Let me back up. You were
in this place, and you saw two individuals.
Were they the only ones in there -- only
customers in this place?
A. No, they weren't.
Q. There were other customers?
A. Yes.
Q. They were -- and they were
looking at you for some reason, and you were
suspicious of them?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you stay in there?
A. I imagine four or five minutes
at the most.
Q. Did these individuals leave
before you did or did you leave first?
A. They apparently left before I
did.
Q. Did you watch them the whole
time you were in there?
A. No, I didn't stare at them. I
just got the feeling they was watching me,
and so --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1981
Q. Okay. Then you left, and where
did you go then?
A. I went to Jim's Grill then.
Q. Okay. How far was Jim's Grill
from this location where you were?
A. I don't think it was over a
block and a half or two blocks. I couldn't
be more specific than that. It was on the
other side of the street.
Q. Okay. How did you recognize
Jim's Grill?
A. I think there was a sign there
or something, you know.
Q. Where was it?
A. Where was the sign?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I don't have no idea now at this
time.
Q. Was there any lettering on the
windows or on the door that you recall
saying, Jim's Grill?
A. No, I can't recall that at all.
There was something on there.
Q. So you entered Jim's Grill off
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1982
of Main Street?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you have anything with
you in your hands? Were you carrying
anything, briefcase or anything?
A. No, I wasn't carrying anything,
no.
Q. You walked into Jim's Grill, and
what did you see in there?
A. Well, these two individuals were
in there, and Raul wasn't in there, so I
just -- I think I ordered a beer in there.
I'm not 100 percent certain, but I may have.
Q. Can you tell us something about
Jim's Grill, what you remember seeing about
it when you first entered? Was it a place
where there was just a bar or were there
tables or tell us what you remember.
A. Well, my recollection was --
and, of course, I found out subsequently my
recollection is wrong -- it was on -- on the
left-hand side there was a bar, and on the
right-hand side there was sort of booths.
And subsequently I learned it was just the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1983
opposite. The bar was on the right-hand
side, and the booths was on the left-hand
side. I think the -- the back part of the
bar seemed to be a -- it might have been
lower than the front part.
Q. Lower?
A. Yes, I believe it was. I think
they might have served food back there.
That's what my recollection is.
Q. Were you seated?
A. Pardon?
Q. Were you seated at any time?
A. No, I was up in the front.
Q. At the bar?
A. Yes.
Q. Who waited on you?
A. Well, some young lady. She was
black or white. I can't recall just --
Q. About what time did you arrive
at the bar roughly, Mr. -- I mean Jim's Grill
roughly, Mr. Ray? Are we looking at two
o'clock, three o'clock, four o'clock, what?
A. No. It was sometime after
three. I don't think it was a whole lot
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1984
after three.
Q. How many customers did they have
in there?
A. There didn't appear to be many
in there at all from what I could see.
Q. You saw these other two
individuals you had seen earlier in there.
Where were they seated, up at the bar or were
they at a table?
A. No. They were down further from
where I was, and there was -- I think there
was a bar. They just glanced up.
Q. These two individuals, were they
black or white?
A. They were white.
Q. Okay. And did they have any
rings in their ear or anything like that?
A. I don't recall what -- I don't
recall anything about one of them. The one I
do recall appeared to be -- looked to me --
seemed to be out of place. He had a coat on.
He was about five foot eight or nine, and
he looked like he weighed about a hundred and
-- kind of a fairly strong build -- a
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1985
hundred and seventy pounds or something like
that.
Q. And did he have long hair, short
hair?
A. No. I think he just looked
normal.
Q. Okay. When you went into Jim's
Grill, did they seem to be looking at you
some more?
A. Yes. I think he did -- I think
I seen them, and they just glanced up. And I
was just in there a few minutes and that was
--
Q. Did you leave?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Where did you go from
there?
A. Well, I intended then to go down
and pick up the Mustang at the commercial
parking lot and park in the general area of
Jim's Grill.
Q. Now, the Mustang is, what, seven
or eight blocks away, something like that?
A. Yes. It was at least seven or
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1986
eight blocks away.
Q. Okay.
A. It could have been a little bit
farther.
Q. You stayed in Jim's Grill about
15 minutes?
A. No, I wasn't there -- I believe
it was two or three minutes.
Q. I thought you said you ordered a
beer.
A. I did. I probably just left it
sitting there.
Q. All right. Did you order
anything else besides a beer?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And these individuals were there
when you left?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You walked out, and
when you walked out on Main Street, did you
go north or south to go get your Mustang?
A. I think I -- I think I went
north, the same way I came in.
Q. Okay. Did you go back and get
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1987
the Mustang?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And where did you park it
when you came back?
A. I parked it, I would estimate,
about 15 or 20 feet from Jim's Grill,
probably in front of the front door. I know
I didn't park right in front of the -- right
in front of the place.
Q. Now, was it facing north or
south on Main?
A. It was facing north.
Q. And after you parked the car
what did you do then?
A. Well, I went back in Jim's
Grill.
Q. Okay. And who did you see in
there then?
A. Well, Raul was in there at that
--
Q. He was in there?
A. Yes, he was in there.
Q. Where was he?
A. Well, he was up at the bar
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1988
section.
Q. In the bar?
A. Yes.
Q. Sitting at the bar?
A. Yes.
Q. What was he -- how was he
dressed? Do you remember how he was dressed?
A. Well, he had a dark suit on. I
don't know if it was a suit, but -- and he
had a shirt on, and he didn't have no tie on,
and that's about it.
Q. Okay. When you entered Jim's
Grill, did you, again, go up to the bar and
have a seat?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you order anything?
A. I may have ordered a beer. I'm
not 100 percent certain.
Q. Who waited on you that time?
A. Well, it would have been the --
well, it would have been the young waitress,
but it's my recollection that when I went in
one time, she was white, and when I went in
the next time, she was black. But I don't
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1989
know which sequence --
Q. Did you ever see any male
employees of that grill either time you were
in there, anyone?
A. No, I really wasn't in there
very -- long enough to pay much -- I usually
don't pay too much attention to people when I
go into bars anyway, I mean unless there is
some reason to pay attention to them. So I
wouldn't have --
Q. I thought you told me earlier
you had been to some place -- an ice cream
place, and you noticed that the girl didn't
seem to know how to operate the cash
register.
A. Yes.
Q. So you did notice sometimes --
A. Well, I was interested in the
cash register because I was -- well, I just
-- you know, when you are robbing --
Q. But you don't recall seeing if
there was men or women in the grill this
time?
A. No. I don't recall how many was
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1990
in there or anything of that nature. I
wasn't -- I was just interested in him, and
that was it. I was interested in getting in
and getting out.
Q. All right. What did he tell you
when you entered the grill?
A. Well, I can't recall all the
conversation, but he seemed to be interested
in the Mustang, and subsequently --
Q. What did he tell you that made
you think he was interested in the Mustang?
A. He asked me if I had it, and so
I said, yes. And when we went out the door,
I said, you know, there it is. It's parked
there.
Q. Had he ever driven the Mustang
before?
A. Had he?
Q. Yes, sir. Up to this point had
he ever driven it any time since you had had
it?
A. If he had, I hadn't -- I didn't
know about it.
Q. Okay. I mean, what was his
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1991
interest in the Mustang? Why was he
interested in that as far as you could tell?
A. Well, he wanted to know if I had
it, you know, if I had brought it with me.
Q. Well, I mean wouldn't he have
known that because you had been driving it?
How did he think you would have gotten there
without the Mustang? I mean didn't he buy
the Mustang or give you the money to buy it
so you could drive it?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you not find it
strange that he asked you -- inquired about
the Mustang all of a sudden as to where it
was and whether or not you had it?
A. Well, I didn't -- I didn't
consider it strange since he paid for it. Of
course, I had some equity in it because I
sold the Plymouth. I considered I had equity
in it, but it's not strange to me at all if
he wanted to possibly use it or something.
Q. All right. But he had never
driven it before that as far as you know?
A. He had never been in it?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1992
Q. He had never driven it before
that?
A. He had a set of keys, but if he
did, I didn't know about it.
Q. Okay. Other than asking you
about the Mustang, what else did he ask you
or mention to you?
A. Well, he wanted me to rent a
room upstairs at the rooming house over Jim's
Grill.
Q. Did you notice there was a
rooming house up there when you drove up to
Jim's Grill in the Mustang or when you came
there the first time?
A. I don't believe I did. No, I
don't think so.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, let me ask you
something. Why had you checked out of the
New Rebel Motel? What was the reason for
checking out there when you checked out?
A. You mean the next day at twelve
o'clock?
Q. The day you checked out, yes,
sir.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1993
A. Well, I was going to have a
meeting with Raul, and I had until three
o'clock, and I had to get out of there a
certain time, so I checked out.
Q. But how did you know where you
were going to stay that night?
A. Well, I really didn't know where
I was going to stay, but, you know, it was no
problem finding some place to stay.
Q. Did he tell you to check out of
the motel or was that just your idea?
A. Well, no, he didn't tell me to
check out, but he told me to meet him there.
And as I mentioned, I had to check out by a
certain hour.
Q. Did you think you would be
leaving Memphis that day?
A. I had no idea at that time.
Q. You had all your belongings with
-- what did I leave there?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I didn't leave anything there.
I took -- yes, I took all of my -- I thought
you was talking about my belongings from
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1994
Atlanta.
Q. I'm talking about all the things
you brought to Memphis with you.
A. No. Everything -- when I left
the New Rebel, took everything out of it I
had and, you know, put them in the car.
Q. All right. Now, he told you to
rent a room up in the rooming house over
Jim's Grill?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did he give you some
money?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. All right. Did you proceed to
do that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. How did you know where to
go to the stairway to go to this rooming
house? Did he show you?
A. I don't know -- I don't think he
showed me. I think -- or he might have
pointed it out, but there is -- I know I was
right close by the stairway that led up
there, and he just -- he was the one that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1995
suggested I go up there. So he might have
pointed it out or something. He might have
been --
Q. Did he go up there with you?
A. Not at that time, no, I went up
alone.
Q. All right. Well, was he still
in Jim's Grill when you left?
A. I really don't know where he
went. After I left -- when I went up to the
rooming house and rented the room, he may
have went back to the grill or he may have
sat in the car. I don't know where he was.
Q. My question is, when you left
Jim's Grill, did he leave with you or had he
already left?
A. Yes. He -- we went out the door
at the same time.
Q. Which direction did he go on
Main Street when you went out?
A. Well, we both turned left and,
you know, walked over toward the car.
Q. Was the car parked north or
south of the front door of Jim's Grill?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1996
A. The car would have been south of
Jim's Grill, not too far south.
Q. And when you walked out of the
Jim's Grill to go up to the stairs, did you
go north or south on Main Street?
A. Well, when I came out, I went
south, and as I mentioned, toward the
Mustang.
Q. Okay.
A. And then when I went to the -- I
went upstairs to the rooming house, I'm not
certain just what location -- whether I went
three or four steps north or three or four
steps south, but it's right in that general
area.
Q. Okay. Did you have to enter
through a door to go to the stairs to go up
to the rooming house?
A. Yes, there was a door there.
Q. Okay. And you left the street
and went through the door up to the top of
the stairs, right?
A. It's my recollection that, yes,
I went to the stairs, and then I -- I think I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1997
turned right and went down a slight incline,
and I went up some more stairs, and the
office is there.
Q. And where was Raul during this
time?
A. Well, he was either in Jim's
Grill or in the car, just standing down there
somewhere.
Q. Okay.
A. I have no idea specifically
where he was at.
Q. And you reached the top of the
stairs at the location there, and what did
you -- who did you see or who did you talk
to?
A. Well, I talked to some lady
there. She was apparently the landlady, and
I just inquired -- made inquiry about a room,
and she told me she had two. She showed me
two rooms. One was a sleeping room, and one
was a room I think they cook in. And I told
her I just wanted a sleeping room. So she
said okay. She showed me -- but she showed
me both of them, and then when we got back to
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1998
the office, I think I gave her 10 or $20, and
she gave me some change.
Q. Okay. What name did you use?
A. At that point -- I think I used
the name John Willard at that place.
Q. Had you ever used that alias
before?
A. I don't know. I possibly had
heard it before or something. I have some
recollection of hearing the name before, but
I'm not, certain. I probably did.
Q. Mr. Ray, what I find strange is
you used Eric Galt two nights before this,
and all of a sudden on the night Dr. King was
assassinated you use another alias. What was
the reason for that?
A. When I go in a motel, I always
use my -- the car I'm registered under
because the police check on these -- on these
-- you know, they drive by and check your
license plates and see if it matches up with
your room.
Anyway, whenever I go in a hotel
or a rooming house, I always use an alias
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 1999
because, you know, the police don't --
they're not checking license plates.
Q. But you didn't use an alias down
in Birmingham when you stayed there?
A. Well, I was going to stay there
quite a while. I had my car parked down
there, and I was trying to get
identification.
Q. How long -- how did you know how
long you were going to be in this rooming
house in Memphis?
A. I didn't know. Raul, when he
met me up in the room, he said we might be
there two or three days, and he suggested I
bring my clothing up. But I had no idea how
long I was going to be there, but I didn't
think it would be over a couple of days.
Q. Had you ever known anyone by the
name of John Willard?
A. I may have heard that name
somewhere. Usually when I use an alias -- if
I have heard of someone or something,
sometimes I'll use the name. But I can't
recall just where the name originated from.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2000
Q. And also in Atlanta you were
there under the name of Eric Galt too,
weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you weren't in a motel there
where the police were checking your license,
were you?
A. No, no, I wasn't. I was
receiving criminal correspondence there too.
Q. The Mustang was still parked
downstairs some 15 or 20 feet away from the
front of the grill door, right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. About what time was
it that you went upstairs to get the room?
A. It's really difficult to
estimate that. I would say -- I know I was
late when I got there. It could have been
four o'clock or fifteen after four. It was
somewhere -- it was after 3:30 because I was
supposed to have been up there, I think, at
3:30. And then I had -- I think I was on
time the first time, and then how long it
took me to walk down there and pick up the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2001
Mustang and drive back, that's probably how
late it was. I would guess it was somewhere
-- four -- maybe after four o'clock.
Q. You said you were supposed to
get there at 3:30?
A. I believe it was about 3:30. He
give me a -- 3:00 or 3:30. He gave me a time
to be up there.
Q. Had you driven very far south on
Main Street past Jim's Grill before parking
the Mustang, say a block or two?
A. Had I driven south?
Q. Yes, sir. You said you were
facing north, so you must have driven south
and turned around and parked on -- you're
saying you were parked on the same side as
Jim's Grill, weren't you?
A. Yes, but I think I believe I
came in on the south side. I may have -- I
may have come down on the north side and
turned around and come back and parked on the
-- the front of Jim's Grill or I may have
come in from the south side. But I don't --
I don't have no clear recollection of that at
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2002
all, but it seems to me like I came in from
the south.
Q. Do you remember passing a fire
station just a -- almost within sight of
Jim's Grill, just a short distance away?
A. I know the fire station you're
talking about, but I don't recall passing it,
no.
Q. Okay. How long did you stay in
the room after you rented the room? After
you paid her for the room, how long did you
stay there before you left?
A. Well, I hadn't been up there
over three or four minutes, and then Raul
came up there. He --
Q. Now, you said -- I'm sorry. Go
ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off.
A. No. He entered the room. He
came up there.
Q. You said she showed you a
sleeping room and a cooking room, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And were they on the same side
of the building? Was one on the north side
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2003
and one on the south side -- I'm sorry --
east and west side?
A. I don't know just where they was
at, but they weren't close together. One of
them was on, I think, one side of the
building, and one side was the other.
Q. They weren't side by side?
A. No, they weren't.
Q. You had to walk in one direction
to go to one and one direction to the other,
right?
A. Yes, they were --
Q. All right. This room that you
paid her for, can you describe it for me,
what you -- what it looked like? What did it
have in it?
A. Well, there was a bed in it and
a dresser, and I think there was a chair, and
that's about all I recall.
Q. Okay. You didn't have any of
your personal belongings such as any clothing
or anything with you then?
A. Not at that time. Raul, he --
later he suggested I bring my clothing up
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2004
there, but when I first went up, no, I didn't
have anything.
Q. Okay. It was in your car?
A. Yes.
Q. Did it have a window?
A. Yes. I think there were a
couple of windows, yes.
Q. Did you look out the window to
see what the -- which direction they were
facing or what kind of a view you had?
A. I don't have any clear
recollection, but I know I always look out
the back window, you know, in case the police
run in, and I need an exit or something.
Q. You were on a second story
building?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What did you see in
looking out the window?
A. I don't have no recollection,
but I know I usually always check out, you
know, windows when I check into a place like
that.
Q. Well, let me ask you this: The
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2005
window you were looking out, were you looking
in a generally east direction or west
direction?
A. Well, one of the windows would
have faced -- let's see -- south. If you are
going south, west is on your -- let me see.
Here is north and south.
For the record, I'm putting this
on a piece of paper trying to get it
straightened out.
When you are on the south --
well, it would have been facing east.
Q. Could you see the Lorraine
Motel?
A. I didn't have no recollection of
seeing it. You can see it from -- I have
seen -- I have subsequently seen diagrams of
the place. It would have been easy to see.
Q. Did you see any vegetation, such
as trees, immediately behind the place where
you were staying?
A. I don't have no recollection. I
was just looking at it for a quick exit. I
wasn't interested in, you know, any
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2006
particular trees or whatever.
Q. Okay. Raul came on up and came
in your room and told you what?
A. Well, we just had a brief
conversation, and he said we might be a
couple of days or three, and he suggested I
bring my clothing up. And then I didn't want
to do that because of the type place it was.
It was a wino place, and they come in and
carry off your things of that nature. But
subsequently I did bring some articles up
there.
Q. What did you bring up there?
A. I brought a case up there,
overnight case, and some shaving --
Q. Talking about a piece of luggage
or a suitcase or something like that?
A. Yes. It was kind of a small, I
would say -- well, just a small -- about the
size of a large attache case.
Q. All right. Now, that was the
first time Raul had been up there after you
had checked -- after you had paid for the
room, right?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2007
A. Well, I don't know if he had
been there before I had or not.
Q. Since you had been --
A. But with me, yes, that was the
first time.
Q. Did he have this rifle with him?
A. I don't know if he did or not.
He didn't have it with him when he came into
the room.
Q. Okay. Did he have anything with
him? Did you see him with any kind of an
attache case or luggage or anything that you
saw?
A. Well, subsequently not -- at
that particular time I noticed he turned his
back on me once, and he raised his arm or
something, and, you know, I think he -- I
thought he had a small transistor radio in
his pocket, but other than that, he didn't
have anything.
Q. All right. Did he have on a
coat or just a shirt and pants?
A. He had on a coat and a shirt and
pants, I think.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2008
Q. Now, you had no idea at that
time what he wanted you to do, am I correct,
I mean why you were there or what he wanted
you to do?
A. Yes. I knew it was something
about displaying guns, and, you know --
Q. What made you think that?
A. Well, he generally referred to
that. He didn't make any specific -- but he
just generally --
Q. Well, what did he say to
generally refer to that? What words did he
use?
A. Well, he was going to meet gun
dealers in Memphis, and, you know, the -- he
was never specific about anything, and --
Q. Who was he going to make a gun
deal in Memphis with?
A. He didn't say anything about --
any names or anything of that nature.
Q. Okay. He came up and told you
he thought you should bring your personal
belongings up to the room, right?
A. Yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2009
Q. He said you might be there three
or four days?
A. Yes, two or three days.
Q. Did he stay in the room while
you had gone down and got those things?
A. I don't believe I got them right
then. I think I may have got them like -- I
may have got them then, but I think I got
them the next time. He had me run an errand
at that time, and --
Q. Where did he have you go and run
an errand?
A. Well, that's when he wanted me
to purchase the pair of binoculars with
infrared attachments on them, and he gave me
general directions to a sporting goods store
where I could get them at.
Q. Okay. How much money did you
have on you then, Mr. Ray, roughly?
A. Well, I had --
Q. He had given you $700 to buy
this gun a few days earlier. You spent part
of it for the gun.
A. I don't know. I had 15 or
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2010
$1,600, I guess, altogether.
Q. How can you account for that
because you said you were running low on
money before he gave you this $700.
A. Well, I used to tell him I was
running low on money, but I wasn't -- I don't
think I have testified here I was running low
on money. I don't know what you would
consider low, but --
Q. I'm just using your words. You
said you had asked him for money, and he gave
you $700 when he told you to purchase this --
A. No. I didn't ask him for no
money. He just volunteered that. I asked
him for some money in -- excuse me -- in New
Orleans, but I didn't ask him for any money
when I purchased the rifle.
Q. How did you come up with 16 or
$1,700? Where did you get that money from?
Was that another robbery?
A. No. That's money he gave me,
and I saved it. And I hadn't been robbing --
I hadn't been committing any robberies at
that time.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2011
Q. Well, Mr. Ray, I'm having
trouble with some things. You asked him for
the money in New Orleans. You had left there
and had gone to Birmingham, on to Atlanta,
back to Birmingham, then to all these other
stops you had made, and he only gave you
$700. And I'm having trouble understanding
how you had this much money on you.
A. Well, that's the way I have got
it figured out based on what he's given me
altogether, and what I worked for and what I
escaped with. The reason I come up with the
money --
Q. You had escaped months before.
A. Yes. But I'm talking about --
I'm trying to -- you know, all the money I'm
accumulating all the time I was out there,
and I don't recall just how much money. The
way I calculate my money is how much I was
arrested with and how much I had here and how
much I spent. I don't -- you know, I wasn't
counting my money all the time, but I knew
generally what I had. Of course, the record
supports how much I spent.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2012
Q. But you think you had 15 or
$1,600 when you arrived in Memphis?
A. I believe after he gave me this
-- the $700, think I had 15 or $1,600.
Q. All right. Including that?
A. Well, minus what was used to
purchase the rifle with.
Q. In other words, when he gave you
$700 after you purchased the rifle, you had
15 or 1,600 left; is that correct?
A. Yes, I -- yes, I'm certain of
that.
Q. All right. Of course, you had
used some of the money for motels and food
and gasoline along the way, right?
A. Well, I wouldn't have used too
much on that. I mean after -- I wouldn't use
70 or $80 for the motels and the gasoline.
Q. Okay. All right. He told you
then -- now, he came up to your room, and he
wanted you to run an errand, and what was the
purpose of that?
A. That was to check on the
infrared attachments on the binoculars.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2013
Q. Okay. Were you familiar with
infrared?
A. No. I had heard of them, but I
hadn't -- I wasn't familiar with them at all.
Q. All right. And do you know --
did you know what -- in other words, what
would people use infrared for?
A. I believe they use them to see
in the night.
Q. And did he tell you where to go
get some infrared binoculars?
A. Well, he gave me directions
where I could check on them at this sporting
goods store, which was the binoculars or
whatever it was. He gave me directions down
the street. It was on the right-hand side of
the street going north on Main Street, and I
went in that general direction, and I
couldn't find it. I apparently didn't go
down far enough. So I went back and
explained to him I couldn't locate the place,
and he gave me more specific directions.
Q. Okay. Did you find it?
A. The second time, yes, I found
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2014
it.
Q. Now, what time are we talking
about now roughly? You said you were
supposed to meet him at 3:30 and you were
late. So we're looking at, what, 4:30 or
5:00 o'clock in the afternoon on --
A. Yes. I would say a quarter --
maybe a quarter til five or somewhere like
that, yes.
Q. On April 4, 1968?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you wandered down
Main Street to look for this place called,
which we know is York Arms, right?
A. Yes, that's it.
Q. And you didn't find it the first
time. You went -- did you go as much as two
or three blocks?
A. I think I had probably went
three or four blocks. I may have walked past
it, but I'm inclined to think I didn't go far
enough.
Q. Had he told you how much money
to spend for them?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2015
A. No, he didn't mention that.
Q. Okay. Then you couldn't find
it. You then went back to the rooming house?
A. Yes.
Q. And then he gave you more
directions, and then you went back again?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And, then you did go back
to York Arms and find some binoculars; am I
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And were they infrared?
A. No. The salesman told me I
would have to check with the Army Surplus to
get those.
Q. Okay. Did he tell you where
there was an Army Surplus located?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. There was one within a block or
two of there, wasn't it?
A. He didn't --
Q. He didn't tell you that?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. All right. You bought some
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2016
binoculars, and were they in a case or
describe them for me.
A. Well, I can't describe them. I
think he just put them in a box, and they
weren't --
Q. Did he show them to you or did
you look through them and try to adjust them?
A. I think he handed them to me and
asked me if these were all right, and I
handed them back and said, Okay, and --
Q. Then you did what then?
A. Well, I just purchased them, and
I asked him some other question, but I can't
recall just exactly what that was.
Q. Do you know what you paid for
them?
A. It wasn't very much.
Q. Ten dollars, fifteen, forty,
fifty?
A. No. It was more than that. It
was $30, I would just guess, 30 or 35.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. I went back to the rooming
house, and Raul, he was still up there. And
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2017
I just told him that I couldn't get the
infrared attachment, and he would have to get
them at an Army facility. And I just threw
the binoculars down on the bed, and that was
it. And then we had a brief conversation. I
hadn't eaten since about, I guess, twelve or
one o'clock. So I --
Q. Now, we're looking at 5:00 p.m.
Or something like that now or 5:15 roughly,
aren't we?
A. Yes. We're coming in there,
yes.
Q. Okay. When you got back to the
room, Mr. Ray, what was Raul doing? Was he
drinking anything, eating anything, watching
-- just what was he doing that you recall?
A. He was just sitting or standing
around. I don't recall specifically what he
was doing. He wasn't doing anything unusual.
Q. Okay. You still hadn't seen any
rifle at that point?
A. No, I hadn't.
Q. Did he have a room up there or
do you know?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2018
A. I really don't know. I assumed
that -- well, I assumed he did, but I don't
know that for certain.
Q. All right. And how long did you
stay in the room when you went back out
there?
A. Not too long. I mentioned the
fact that, you know, I hadn't eaten since
twelve o'clock or somewhere around there.
Q. Okay. Now, we're looking at
around 5:00, 6:15 or something like that,
5;20, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And how long would you
say you stayed in the room, five minutes,
ten, fifteen, twenty, what --
A. Yes. It wouldn't have been any
longer than five or ten minutes.
Q. Okay. And what did you tell him
you were going to do?
A. I told him I was going to have
some lunch.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes. I went to a place called
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2019
the Chickasaw -- it was a drug store, and
they sold sandwiches. I didn't know the name
of this place. The policeman in the Memphis
Jail told me the name of it. I described it
to him, so I assume that's the same one. I
believe he said underneath the hotel on the
corner was the Chickasaw Bar or restaurant or
something.
Q. Now, did you go north or south
on Main Street when you left?
A. North.
Q. Did you walk or drive?
A. I walked.
Q. Was that a block or two, two or
three blocks or what?
A. From Jim's Grill? I don't know
how far this place is. I don't think it's
very far, a couple or three blocks.
Q. Okay. Now, you walked there and
purchased a sandwich?
A. I think I got some ice cream.
Q. Okay. Is this where you saw the
young lady who seemed to not know how to
operate the cash register?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2020
A. Yes. I was sitting right up at
the cash register, and the manager come up,
and he was telling her how to operate it.
And I was just generally looking at it to see
if it was -- about the money angle. I was
interested in the money.
Q. Okay. How long did you stay in
there would you say?
A. I don't think I was in there --
maybe 10 minutes at the most.
Q. Okay. And what did you do after
that?
A. Well, I went back to the rooming
house up above Jim's Grill. Sometime during
this point I think sat in the Mustang, but
I'm not certain just when I sat in the
Mustang, whether it was that time or when I
left the next time, when I left the rooming
house the next time. But I know at one time
there I was sitting in the Mustang briefly,
and I was just sitting there thinking.
Q. Okay. Well, was -- did you go
back up to the room then?
A. Yes, I did.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2021
Q. And who was there?
A. Raul.
Q. And what did he tell you then?
A. Well, we just had another brief
conversation. He said he was going to meet
some dealers there that evening or night.
Q. There where?
A. Pardon?
Q. Where did he say he was going to
meet them?
A. He was going to meet them there
in the room.
Q. In the room you were in?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then what?
A. Well, he asked me if I would,
you know, go somewhere else until the meeting
was over, and then a couple or three hours
and go to a movie and wherever. And he asked
me to leave the car out front, you know,
leave the car there. So I left -- I left
there about --
Q. Now, what time are we talking
about now? We're down to about 5:20 when you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2022
-- 5:15 or 5:20 when you went to get the ice
cream. You had ten more minutes or so, which
would have made it around 5:30. Then you
walked back. Are we looking at, what, 5:30
or a quarter of 6:00?
A. It was somewhere around -- yes,
5:40 or a quarter til 6:00, somewhere around
that time.
Q. All right. You walked back up
to the room, and he told you he was going to
meet some people there for what purpose?
A. Well, he referred to the gun
transactions.
Q. But you hadn't seen the gun, had
you?
A. No, I hadn't seen it.
Q. You didn't, have it in your
possession?
A. No. I didn't look under the bed
or in the closet or anything. It could have
been in the other room, but I didn't see it.
The last I saw it was the New Rebel Motel.
Q. Okay. And what did he tell you
to do then?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2023
A. Well, he just asked me to go to
a movie or something and come back, you know,
in a couple of hours, and he wanted -- three
hours -- and he wanted to -- he was going to
have a meeting with these individuals.
Q. All right. Did you leave the
room?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And which way aid you go on Main
Street that time?
A. I crossed the street. Now, at
that time I may have sat in the Mustang for
five or ten minutes. I don't know, but as I
mentioned in previous testimony, at one time
I know I sat in the Mustang for a brief
period of time. I don't think it was ten
minutes.
Anyway, when I left there, when
I went to -- went to a -- regardless of
whether I sat in the Mustang, I went across
the street, and I went -- I walked about a
couple of blocks, I guess, and I went into a
-- I think it was a bar. And I think they
had chairs in there where you -- where you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2024
could sit down, tables and chairs.
Q. Uh-huh. Did you stay in there?
A. Yes. I stayed in there. I was
just sitting there thinking.
Q. Now, we're getting close to 6:00
p.m., very close?
A. We're fairly close to it, I
guess, yes.
Q. And you had -- it was a block or
two away?
A. I would say a couple of blocks,
yes.
Q. Okay. How long would you
estimate you stayed there, Mr. Ray?
A. Not really too long, maybe -- I
think I may have ordered a beer. I may have
ordered a sandwich and not ate it. I don't
know just what -- I was thinking about, you
know, what to do for two or three hours. And
at that time I recalled I had a flat tire
earlier in the morning.
Q. When you left this place, where
did you go then?
A. Well, I went back. I was going
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2025
back to pick up the Mustang and get the tire
fixed and park back, you know, at the same
location that I was at.
Q. Okay. Well, did you go back and
get the Mustang?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. Was it ever parked back
in front of Jim's Grill anymore?
A. Did I ever park it back in front
of Jim's Grill? No, no. I left Memphis.
Q. Well, let me ask you something.
How can you account for the fact that the
Mustang was parked right in front of Jim's
Grill, in front of the door, and there was
two cars parked bumper to bumper, one in
front and one in back? How can you account
for that? We have several witnesses that
said they saw it.
A. I believe you have different
witnesses testifying to different things.
Q. No, sir, I don't. Several
witnesses told this same thing, many of them.
They all saw it sitting right in front of
the door. Mr. Jowers drove up and parked
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2026
right behind your car --
A. Not my Mustang.
Q. -- bumper to bumper. You were
in his parking place there.
A. Well, that's his testimony. Of
course, I have testified differently.
Q. Many others too.
A. Yes.
Q. Was it ever in front of the door
of the grill -- directly in front of the door
where there was another one parked behind it
and directly in front of it?
A. I don't believe it was ever in
front of the directly in front of the door,
no. This is my recollection. No, I didn't
you know, I didn't -- when I parked there, I
didn't have no intention of trying to
remember subsequently just where I parked at,
but I know it was very close to the grill.
Q. Okay. Okay. You walked back to
the Mustang. It was some 10 to 15 feet south
of the grill -- the front door of the grill,
is that your testimony, where you parked it
earlier?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2027
A. Yes, I believe it was.
Q. All right. Any cars parked in
front of it or behind it then that you
remember where you had trouble getting out?
A. I don't recall having had any
problem getting out.
Q. Okay. And when you left, you
traveled, what, north on Main Street?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And how far did you go
before you turned off of Main Street?
A. I can't be certain. It could
have been three blocks or it could have been
five or six. But I did go several blocks up
the street, and I turned right, and I think
when I turned right, I went -- I didn't go
very far when I turned right, maybe just one
or two blocks at the most, and turned -- I
made another right turn.
Q. Okay. So you made a right turn
off of Main Street?
A. Yes.
Q. And how far did you go before
you turned again?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2028
A. Not very far. It was either one
or two blocks, but it was not as far as --
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, just a short
distance would have been a pretty heavy
business district. Had you gotten up in that
area when you turned off?
A. I have no recollection of just
-- I really don't know-- have no strong
recollection of where I turned off right the
first time. I'm just estimating this.
Q. Okay. And what were you looking
for?
A. A service station.
Q. All right. Did you find a
service station?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. And did you stop there?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you stay there very
long?
A. No. I just asked him if he
could fix the tire, and the attendant said
that, you know, he was busy or it was a busy
time of day or something of that nature.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2029
Q. Okay. And, we're looking at
what time?
A. Well, I guess around six
o'clock. I wasn't checking my watch, but I
based that on the reports.
Q. When you left the room, you had
all of your belongings there, your -- did you
have any clothing with you, any other
clothing with you besides what you had on?
A. Yes. I had it out in the car,
yes.
Q. I thought you said you had taken
it all up to the room?
A. No, I hadn't. I was concerned
about it being stolen. The only thing I took
to the room was an overnight case, I think it
was, and I think I took something to put on
the bed to sleep on.
Q. Okay. Did you take what we call
a bedspread up there with you?
A. Yes. I took -- I may have took
a bedspread or sheet up there. I'm not
certain just what -- I know I took something
up there to cover up the bed with.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2030
Q. Where did you get the bedspread?
A. I really don't know where it
came from.
Q. How long had you had it?
A. I don't know that either.
Q. Okay. When you were in the
rooming house either time you were up there,
did you see anyone else besides the lady that
you paid the money to? Did you see anyone
else that appeared to be walking around up
there or someone who was a resident of that
place?
A. No. I didn't see anyone all the
time I was up there.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, after you paid
her for the money to rent the room, did you
ever go into the bathroom?
A. I may have, but I don't have no
recollection of it.
Q. Where was the bathroom in
relation to the room that you rented?
A. Well, I subsequently discovered
that it was across -- across the hall and
further back down -- back down the hall.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2031
Q. It was on the same side of the
building as your room?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Can you describe the
bathroom for me?
A. No, I can't.
Q. You don't remember what --
A. Well, I have seen pictures of
it. I can describe it now, yes.
Q. Did the bathroom have a window
in it?
A. Yes. The pictures I saw, it had
a bathtub in it, and it had windows in it and
a toilet bowl, and I believe that was it.
Q. Okay. Did you ever look out the
window in the bathroom?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. When you were in the bathroom,
was that the first time you were up there,
the second time you were up there, the third
time you were up there?
A. I don't know if I was in the
bathroom. I said I may have been in it, but
I don't have any kind of recollection of
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2032
being in it.
Q. Let me ask you something. You
first paid her the rent for the room, and how
long were you there before Raul came up
roughly?
A. Not very long. Once I got back
-- I was in the room, I don't think it was
over five minutes at the most, probably more
like three or four.
Q. And that's when he suggested you
go get the binoculars; is that right?
A. Yes. There was also a -- a
suggestion I bring my clothing up there too.
Q. All right. Was that the first
time -- in other words, when he came up
first, is that when he suggested you bring
your clothing up, the first time he came up?
A. Yes. He mentioned that early on
when we first got there.
Q. Okay. So the first time you
were there some five minutes when Raul came
up, and he suggested you go get your personal
articles, whatever it might be, and bring it
up to the room; is that right?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2033
A. Yes. He mentioned we might be
there two or three days during the
conversation.
Q. Did you tell him you had checked
in under the name of Willard -- used the name
Willard?
A. No. We had had a conversation
before about what -- my name. He wanted me
-- he suggested I check in under the name of
Galt when we -- when I met him at the New
Rebel Motel. And I told him I didn't want to
do that. I thought it would be a mistake if
there was going to be guns around there. So
--
Q. But you did do that, didn't you?
A. Pardon?
Q. You did do that, didn't you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. In the New Rebel Motel, you
didn't check in under the name of Galt?
A. Yes, I did there, but when we
was talking about renting a room at the --
subsequently at Jim's Grill or something, it
was some conversation about renting a room
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2034
there. But I don't think there was any -- it
was a -- I can't recall just exactly what it
was, but there was some -- somewhere I got
some recollection about using my name for
renting rooms. And so I just used the name
Willard.
Q. Okay. You, were there some five
minutes when he came up and suggested you go
get your personal articles out of your car.
You did that; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. You were back up there, and how
--
A. I don't know when I got the
articles. I got them sometime during that
first -- one of them trips. I brought the
overnight case up there and a sheet or a
bedspread.
Q. Had you brought it up there
before you purchased the binoculars and
brought those up there?
A. I really don't know, but I know
I brought them up there. But I don't know
just when I brought them up there.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2035
Q. All right. About what time did
you go get the room roughly? You were
supposed to meet him at 3:30, and you were a
little late. What time -- would it have been
4:00 o'clock, 4:30?
A. When I rented the room? Yes, I
think it would have been -- it's really just
hard to say. I think it would have been
somewhere between 4:00 and 4:30, in that
general area because I know I was late when I
got up there. It wasn't no 3:00 or 3:30.
Q. Okay. All right. You had got
in the Mustang and left and gone to look for
a service station. What happened then?
A. Well, as I mentioned, the
attendant at the service station I stopped
at, he said that it was either a busy time of
day or he couldn't get it right away. I
wanted to get it fixed right away. And then
I think it was another service station across
from it or across the street or maybe on the
same side of the street. One time I thought
maybe I would stop there, but I'm not -- I
can't swear to that. I really don't think I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2036
did.
Anyway, I left there, and after
-- I couldn't get the tire fixed, and I kept
on going south, and then turned right, which
would have brought me onto Main Street. And
then when I got to Main Street, I looked --
Q. Were you going north or south on
Main Street?
A. Pardon?
Q. Were you going north or south on
Main Street?
A. I wasn't on Main Street then.
Q. I thought you said you got on
Main Street.
A. I was going to get on -- try to
get on Main Street.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't know what the street was
I was going south on, but I turned right in
order to get on Main Street because I had
been -- I had made the square then. When I
got to Main Street, I looked right, and there
appeared to be some policemen there or people
running around down there.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2037
Q. Were you going north or south on
Main then?
A. I wasn't going south. I was
coming to the intersection. I was going
west.
Q. You were not on Main Street?
A. No, I wasn't on Main Street at
that time.
Q. Okay.
A. I was right at the intersection.
Q. All right.
A. It appeared to be this policeman
or someone running around down there, and
there was also -- I saw a squad car down
there. He was parked either at the
intersection or near the intersection. It
looked like he was blocking off the street to
me. So instead of turning right and going
back in front of Jim's Grill, I turned left
in the direction out of town.
Q. Okay. Where did you go from
there?
A. Well, I drove through -- the
neighborhood I drove through looked like it
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2038
was kind of a -- well, it was a run down
neighborhood. It was a black neighborhood,
and I drove kind of slow through there. And
finally I got on one of the main streets. I
think was veering off to the left where I
could, you know, get on one of the main
streets. And then when I got on one of the
main streets, I just kept driving slow.
And somewhere -- it was my
intentions -- I was going -- I had Raul's
phone number, and I was going to talk to his
intermediary and ask him what, if anything,
was going on there. So I didn't want to room
at a place where, you know, the police just
raided or something. So anyway, after --
Q. Where was his intermediary
supposed to be?
A. I don't know his name.
Q. Where was he supposed -- you
don't know where was it in the same area code
as Memphis or a different area?
A. No, it was New Orleans.
Q. Okay. And what time are we
talking about here roughly?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2039
A. Well, it was -- I imagine it
would be a little after six o'clock.
Q. How did you try to call him?
A. I didn't call him.
Q. You did not call him?
A. No. I was going -- I intended
to call him, but on the way out of town, I
think I was -- I got to -- about 10 or 15
minutes, there was a report on the radio that
Martin Luther King had been shot. And then
wasn't paying much attention to that, but
subsequently I -- there was another report,
and they said they was looking for a white
man in a white Mustang and --
Q. Why did you think that might be
you?
A. Well, I was a white man in a
white Mustang, and, you know, I was driving a
-- there is not too many, you know, white
man in a white Mustang driving around town.
So --
Q. How do you account for that, Mr.
Ray?
A. How do I account for it?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2040
Q. That there are not many white
men driving white Mustangs?
A. Well, I assume there is not many
white Mustangs around.
Q. What makes you think that?
A. Well, that would be involved in
crimes. Of course, they wouldn't. Have had
to have been. The only thing is the car fit
my description. I would assume -- I would
have had to assume that they would probably
have been looking for me.
Q. You know there was a report that
there were two white Mustangs parked out
there that day, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you see another white
Mustang besides yours?
A. I don't have any -- I don't have
any recollection of that, no. I seen that --
there was several white cars parked along
there, that's the only recollection I have,
in that general area there on the other side
of the street.
Q. Did you call this number that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2041
you had for Raul?
A. No. After I -- after I got the
second report about the white man in the
white Mustang, then I decided, you know, not
to contact him. Instead of -- I think I --
by that time I was probably in Mississippi.
So the first opportunity I had I turned left
and got on the -- got on another highway
going towards Birmingham.
Q. Okay. So you intended to leave?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you contact Raul
then any time that day or the next day?
A. No. I never had any more
contacts with anyone after that, with him or
anyone else.
Q. Well, why did you not contact
Raul because you had left your personal
belongings back there? You knew he had the
gun that you had purchased back there. I
mean why did you not contact him?
A. I could contact his
intermediary, but I certainly wouldn't want
to contact him if someone has been murdered
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2042
or a major crime had taken place. I just
assumed I had been had or something.
Q. Well, you had no reason to
contact him several months before that.
A. Well, there hadn't been any
serious crimes taken place where I was a
suspect.
Q. But what made you think you
would be involved in this, Mr. Ray, if you
hadn't actually done it?
A. What makes me think I would be
involved in it?
Q. Yes, sir. What made you think
that any police officer or any law
enforcement official would think you were
involved in this if you weren't actually
involved in it?
A. Well, they were stopping a white
man in a white Mustang.
Q. How did you know that?
A. Well, they had the report on the
radio, so they must have been stopping them.
Q. Did you know of anyone they
stopped in a white Mustang? Did you hear them
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2043
say, we stopped X number of people in a white
Mustang -- white men in white Mustangs?
A. No. But they had a report out
on the police radios to look for a white man
in a white Mustang as a suspect in the
shooting of some individual. You have to --
it was more to it than just the Martin Luther
King case. I had 20 years in the Missouri
prison, and didn't want to get, you know,
stopped for anything.
Q. Okay. Well, now, we're looking
at about six o'clock, and you left and you
entered the state of Mississippi you think?
A Yes.
Q. All right. And where did you go
from there?
A. Well, I turned left and went to
Birmingham, and on the way to Birmingham it
started raining slightly, and I threw
everything -- all the camera equipment --
Raul never did pick it up in Mexico. He
told me to just hold on to it. I threw all
the camera equipment in a ditch and wiped my
prints off the Mustang, and then I went on --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2044
and then I drove on into Atlanta.
Q. But, now, let me make sure I
understand something. Simply because you
heard that Dr. King had been shot and there
was a white man in a white Mustang they were
looking for, you assumed it was you?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right? You had no other
reason to --
A. Well, I assumed it was possible
-- a strong possibility that they were
looking for me just based on what I had heard
on the radio.
Q. Well, Mr. Ray, were they looking
for you because you actually did it?
A. No, I don't think they were.
Q. You wound up in Birmingham at
what time?
A. I wound up in Birmingham about
-- sometime during the night. I don't know
what time it was.
Q. Okay. That, same night or the
next day?
A. No. It would have been the same
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2045
night. I would say it was about one or two
o'clock.
Q. All right. Did you try to call
Raul or his intermediary then?
A. No. Once I left, I didn't have
no further contact with Raul or his
intermediary or anyone else after I left
Memphis.
Q. You never did try to contact
him?
A. No, I never did.
Q. Well, I mean is there some
reason for that because you had been
contacting him pretty regularly the last few
months before that.
A. Well, I had, but the situation
was different. Before that we hadn't had --
I hadn't -- you know, I hadn't been -- any
indications that there was any crimes
committed. And the radio report, you know,
they changed that altogether.
Q. I thought you had been sitting
here telling me yesterday and today you knew
he was into crime all the time. You knew he
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2046
was doing criminal activities or thought he
was.
A. Yeah, but we wasn't -- it wasn't
-- it was a different situation. If you
commit a crime and you get away with it more
or less, taking something across the border,
you don't just -- there is no reason then to
cut off all contacts with some individual.
However, if you are involved in something,
and the police are going to connect you with
some, type of serious crime, then you -- I
know that's the way my thinking is, get away
from them and --
Q. Well, did you think Raul had
committed this crime?
A. Well, I really didn't know. I
think it's a possibility of it. Someone --
of course, someone had been up there with
him. I didn't know.
Q. What made you think he committed
it?
A. Well, I didn't necessarily think
he committed it, but he was up there, and he
was interested in the rifle, and you had to
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2047
come to that conclusion.
Q. Well, you knew Dr. King was in
Memphis and knew where he was staying, didn't
you?
A. I didn't know anything about Dr.
King, no.
Q. All right. You -- how long did
you stay in Birmingham?
A. I just went -- I just drove
through there.
Q. All right. And where did you go
from there?
A. I went to Atlanta.
Q. And how long did you stay in
Atlanta?
A. Well, I arrived there, I would
say, in -- I would say it was daylight, seven
or eight o'clock, and stayed there about-- I
caught a bus out of Atlanta about four
o'clock. So I stayed there from about eight
o'clock until four o'clock.
Q. All right. And where did you go
on the bus ride?
A. I went to, I believe it was,
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2048
Indianapolis, Indiana. I'm not certain.
Q. Did you Stay all night there or
did you leave there and go on somewhere else?
A. No. I think we got there about
two or three o'clock in the morning, and it
was a layover there. And from -- and then
from there I went to Detroit on the bus.
Q. Okay. Where had you left the
Mustang?
A. I left it in Atlanta.
Q. Where in Atlanta?
A. I left it in a private parking
lot.
Q. At that time, Mr. Ray, when you
left the Mustang, did you think you were a
suspect in this assassination?
A. Well, I thought it was a
possibility of it, yes.
Q. Other than the fact you had a --
you were a white man in a white Mustang, what
else led you to think that?
A. Well, just our whole actions
before that. We had been involved in
criminal activities and drug smuggling
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2049
apparently, and then he asked me to purchase
the rifle. And I just more or less had to
assume based on my situation at the time, you
know, the police were after me on other
charges, that I could very well have been
involved indirectly in the Martin Luther King
murder.
Q. Well, were you involved
indirectly?
A. Indirectly?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I probably was, yes.
Q. To what extent?
A. Well, I was hauling Raul around
the country and doing things for him. I
didn't have any was involved indirectly, but
I didn't necessarily know what he was doing.
Q. Okay. Did he ever mention Dr.
King to you?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Did you ever see him with a
newspaper or reading anything about the
accounts of Dr. King's activities?
A. I never seen him reading any
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2050
newspaper.
Q. Okay.
A. The only time he read a
newspaper or anything was when we -- when we
was, I think, looking for the Aeromarine
Supply when we was trying to purchase the
rifle.
Q. But let me ask you something.
You said you hadn't listened to the news, you
told me earlier, because you didn't know
anything Dr. King's accounts. Why were you
listening to the news on this particular
night after the assassination? You happened
to be listening to it?
A. I always leave the radio on when
I'm driving because it's kind of boring.
Q. But you took note of the news
this night?
A. Yes.
Q. You hadn't taken the news of any
of the events before that, but you did this
night?
A. Yes.
Q. That's a true statement?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2051
A. Well, I don't know what you're
suggesting. I turned the radio on. Whatever
comes on the radio, that's what I listen to.
Q. I asked you earlier if you had
seen newspapers. We were having tremendous
riots in Memphis. People had been killed.
Dr. King was there, and you said you didn't
know a thing about any of this, and now all
of a sudden after he's assassinated, within
ten minutes, you know he's been assassinated?
A. Well, it was on the radio, and,
of course, there was riots all over the
United States at that time.
Q. Yes, sir. That was on the radio
and tv and the newspaper, the riots too, all
the headlines.
A. Yeah. But if I would have been
just driving down the street and something
about Martin Luther King or anyone else, I
wouldn't have thought anything about it, but
they was talking about a white man in a white
Mustang, and I was kind of hyped up anyway
because I saw the police in that general
area, so naturally I took notice of it.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2052
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, the police were
in that general area when you got there
because there were plenty of police officers
at the fire station no more than a block or
so away, almost within sight of it. You
didn't see that?
A. Did I see them?
Q. Yes, sir. There were plenty of
them there when you got there if you got
there when you say you did.
A. Well, when are you talking
about? When I first went there before --
Q. When you first went there and
moved the Mustang and brought it up in front
of Jim's Grill where you said you parked it
some 15 or 20 feet away. Did you see plenty
of police officers within a block there?
A. No. I don't have no
recollection, and I don't have any
recollection of them seeing me there.
Q. Well, you're bound to have
driven north on Main Street at some point if
you parked on the right side facing north
next to Jim's Grill, and it was just south of
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999 2053
this where the fire station was located.
A. It's my understanding all these
police were called off a couple of hours
before Dr. King was shot. So I think the
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