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1719 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF SHELBY COUNTY, TENNESSEE FOR THE THIRTIETH JUDICIAL DISTRICT AT MEMPHIS _____________________________________________
CORETTA SCOTT KING, MARTIN LUTHER KING, III, BERNICE KING, DEXTER SCOTT KING and YOLANDA KING,
Plaintiffs,
Vs. Case No. 97242-4 T.D.
LOYD JOWERS, and OTHER UNKNOWN CO-CONSPIRATORS,
Defendants. _____________________________________________
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
December 6, 1999 VOLUME XII
BEFORE: HONORABLE JAMES E. SWEARENGEN, Judge _____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD COURT REPORTERS Suite 2200, One Commerce Square Memphis, Tennessee 38103 (901) 529-1999
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1720
- APPEARANCES -
For the Plaintiffs:
MR. WILLIAM PEPPER Attorney at Law 575 Madison Avenue New York, NY 10022 (212) 605-0515
For the Defendant:
MR. LEWIS GARRISON MR. JOHN H. BLEDSOE Attorneys at Law Law Offices of Lewis K. Garrison, Sr. 100 North Main Suite 1025 Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 527-6445
Reported by:
SHERYL G. WEATHERFORD Registered Professional Reporter Daniel, Dillinger, Dominski, Richberger, Weatherford 2200 One Commerce Square Memphis, TN 38103
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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- INDEX -
WITNESS: PAGE NUMBER
LaVADA ADDISON
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GARRISON.......................... 1723
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PEPPER............................ 1727
DEPOSITION OF JAMES EARL RAY
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GARRISON.......................... 1731
EXHIBITS
Trial Exhibit 36 ......................... 1722
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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P R O C E E D I N G S
(Jury out.)
THE COURT: Yes, are we ready to
proceed?
MR. GARRISON: If I might have
just one second. May we approach?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
(Off-the-record discussion held
the bench between Court and counsel.)
THE COURT: Bring the jury out,
Mr. James.
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: Good morning, ladies
and gentlemen. It's gratifying to see that all
of you have survived another weekend. All
right. We are going to proceed with the trial.
Mr. Garrison, you may continue.
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, at this
time I have a report from the physician on
behalf of Mr. Jowers. I would like to have it
marked the next exhibit if I may.
(Whereupon, the above-mentioned
document was marked as Trial Exhibit 36.)
MR. GARRISON: I would like to
call Miss LaVada Addison.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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LaVADA ADDISON
Having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q. Good morning, Miss Addison. Let me ask
you please, ma'am, to tell us your full name.
A. LaVada Whitlock Addison.
Q. You live here in Memphis, Miss Addison?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I have known you many years?
A. Thirty-five or so I guess.
THE COURT: You spell LaVada, L
A --
THE WITNESS: L A capital V A D A.
Q. Miss Addison, you're in some type of
business presently, aren't you?
A. Yes, sir, I'm self-employed.
Q. What is the name of your business?
A. LaVada's Estate Sales. I sell contents
of homes.
Q. Previously you operated a restaurant
here in Memphis some years ago, am I correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And where was it located?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. At the corner of Macon and National.
Q. All right. Let me ask you this:
During -- how many years did you operate the
restaurant?
A. I opened it in 1976 and sold it in
either -- latter part of 1981 or the first part
of 1982.
Q. All right. Among those customers that
came in to see you, would you tell His Honor
and ladies and gentlemen of the jury was there
a Mr. Frank Liberto?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you get to know Mr. Liberto pretty
well?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he in on like a weekly basis? I'm
talking about after he started coming in, daily
basis, how would you describe it?
A. I would probably see him possibly four
or five times per week.
Q. And you and Mr. Liberto had some
conversations quite a bit, am I correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And some of these conversations would
be of things that happened in the past, am I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Let me ask you this: Will you tell His
Honor and ladies and gentlemen of the jury was
there a time when there was some discussions --
I'm not asking you to tell me what he said
right now. But was there a discussion between
you and Mr. Liberto about the assassination of
Doctor Martin Luther King?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that some time after you got to
know Mr. Liberto pretty well?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You had many conversations with him
about various things before then, am I correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, let me ask you this: What were
the circumstances that brought up the
assassination of Doctor King, do you recall?
A. We were sitting at -- well, we called
it a round table, but it really wasn't a round
table. It was just like two tables pushed
together and people would just kind of gather
around, drink coffee, and so forth. But at
that time there were -- just Mr. Liberto and I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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were the only ones sitting there. And the TV
was behind me and something came on the TV in
regard to Doctor King, and Mr. Liberto leaned
over to me and said in a low voice, I had
Doctor Martin Luther King killed.
Q. What was your response to that?
A. I said, don't be telling me anything
like that. I don't want to hear it, and I
don't believe it anyway.
Q. All right. Now, Miss Addison, all the
time you knew Mr. Liberto did you ever hear him
mention the name of Loyd Jowers to you?
A. No, sir.
Q. In fact, did you ever hear of
Mr. Jowers up until the last few months or
years?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Did he ever tell you he was ever
in Mr. Jowers' restaurant? Did he ever mention
that to you, ever been in there?
A. No, sir, he never did.
Q. Is this the only time he had ever
mentioned that to you is that one time?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. GARRISON: That's all I have.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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THE COURT: Mr. Pepper.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER:
Q. Good morning, Miss Addison. Did you in
the course of your acquaintanceship with
Mr. Liberto, did you come to learn anything
about his family?
A. Somewhat.
Q. Did he have any children?
A. He never mentioned children --
Q. He never mentioned --
A. -- that I remember, no, sir.
Q. But he was married?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And so you didn't learn
from him or from any other source whether or
not there were any children in that family?
A. No, sir.
Q. After he made this statement about
arranging to have Martin Luther King killed,
did you see him again?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Many times?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall what year that was again?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. The only way I can remember when I
opened the pizza parlor, I took a little
photography course at Memphis State and I had a
dark room set up behind in the back of the
pizza parlor where I developed pictures. And I
started taking pictures of customers, and I
started -- like the pizza parlor was like
north, south, east and west. And I started on
the south end towards the kitchen putting them
on the walls, black and whites, and all the way
around the walls, and on the west side I would
say Mr. Liberto and his wife's picture was
there pretty well even with the cash register.
And that should -- and some of those pictures
were dated 1977 and some of them were 1978.
And so it had to be during that period of time.
Q. So it was 1977 or 1978 that you had
this conversation with him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was the television on in the cafe at
the time that you had that conversation?
A. Yes, sir, it was on the top of the
jukebox behind me.
Q. And once again what -- do you recall
what was being shown on the television?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. No, sir. I don't recall. But it was
something pertaining to Doctor King.
Q. Something pertaining to Doctor King?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when you saw him again, would it
have been over the course of the next year?
Did you see him for two years after that, do
you recall how long?
A. Probably a year or so. I really don't
remember. I would just be guessing. I don't
know how long it was.
Q. Right.
A. As you get older, time doesn't mean as
much.
Q. Of course. Of course. And did he ever
raise this subject again with you?
A. No, sir.
Q. It never came up in conversation --
A. No, sir.
Q. -- with you at all. Do you recall when
he passed away?
A. I don't know what year it was. I do
remember the obituary being in the paper.
Q. Would it have been soon after you
perhaps saw him for the last time or do you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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think there was a gap there?
A. I think there was a gap there.
MR. PEPPER: There was somewhat of
a gap. Okay. That's all. Thank you very
much, Miss Addison.
MR. GARRISON: I have nothing
further, Miss Addison.
THE COURT: All right. You may
step down, ma'am. You can remain in the
courtroom or you are free to leave.
(Witness excused.)
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, at this
time we would like to offer the testimony of
Mr. James Earl Ray.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. GARRISON: Mr. Bledsoe will
read.
MR. BLEDSOE: This is the
deposition of James Earl Ray which was taken
March 11 and March 12th of 1995 in the case of
James Earl Ray versus Loyd Jowers. Appearing
for the plaintiff was Doctor Pepper.
Representing the defendant was Lewis Garrison.
Also present was Loyd Jowers and Jerry Little.
James Earl Ray having been first duly
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1731
sworn was examined and testified as follows and
his direct examination questioning by
Mr. Garrison.
(The following proceedings were
read by Mr. John H. Bledsoe from the deposition
of Mr. James Earl Ray.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q. Mr. Ray, I'm Lewis Garrison, an
attorney out of Memphis, Tennessee, and I
represent Mr. Jowers seated next to me. You
filed a lawsuit against him as a defendant.
I'm going to ask you some questions, and I want
you to be sure that I -- you understand my
questions before you answer them. If there is
anything I ask you you don't understand, tell
me and I will be glad to repeat it or speak
louder or say it in a way where you understand
it.
A. Okay.
Q. If you will be sure and don't shake
your head. She has to write down what you say,
and if you will, give a complete answer because
she will have to put it on the record what you
say as to the court hearing. And if you will
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1732
give a complete answer, it will assist us in
knowing what you have testified to here today.
A. All right.
Q. Tell us your full name, sir.
A. James Earl Ray.
Q. Okay. And, Mr. Ray, I believe you were
born April 10th, 1928; is that correct, sir?
A. No. Let's see, March 10.
Q. I mean, March 10. I'm sorry, March 10,
1968 -- oh, 1928.
A. Yes.
Q. Yesterday was your birthday. Okay.
You're presently confined to the Riverview --
River Bend --
A. River Bend Maximum Security
Institution.
Q. Security institution. All right. How
long have you been there at this location?
A. Since March 1991.
Q. Now, Mr. Ray, if I'm not mistaken, I
believe you entered a guilty plea on March
10th, 1969, in Memphis, Tennessee; is that
correct, sir?
A. That is correct. Yes.
Q. And you have been confined since that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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time?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you some questions, Mr. Ray.
You were born in Alton, Illinois; is that
correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were the oldest of nine
children?
A. No, it was seven. A lot of these
records I don't know where you get them, but
they're not exactly correct.
Q. You're the oldest of seven children?
A. Yes.
Q. And your mother's name?
A. Lucille.
Q. Okay. I believe she died in 1961; is
that correct?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Did you grow up around Alton?
A. Did I grow up around Alton?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes. But I really don't want to go
into too many of these personal questions that
doesn't have anything to do with the Martin
Luther King case.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. Well, Mr. Ray, according to our rules
this is what is called a discovery deposition,
and we are permitted to go into pretty much
wide latitude, and I'm going to ask you some
questions and I would like you to answer them.
We'll let the judge decide whether or not they
are proper.
A. Yeah. Well, I am not getting into too
many personal questions. You can ask them. I
don't think I'm required to answer them.
Q. Okay. How far did you go in school?
A. Two years of high school.
Q. And what school did you last attend?
A. Well, I would rather not answer that
either.
Q. Okay. Can you tell me the first job
that you held?
A. It was at the International Shoe
Company, Hartford, Illinois.
Q. How old were you when you had that job?
A. Fifteen, I believe.
Q. Okay. What did you do for them?
A. Well, they just made leather materials.
I couldn't go beyond that.
Q. Okay. How long did you work there?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. I would say about sixteen or seventeen
months.
Q. Okay. And where were you living then
when you worked for International?
A. Alton, Illinois.
Q. Before you became 18 years old -- 18
years of age, had you been arrested for
anything?
A. No.
Q. After the International Shoe Company,
then did you enter the military service?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What branch were you in?
A. I was in the Army.
Q. Okay. How long did you serve in the
Army?
A. Three years.
Q. Were you stationed overseas or were you
all in the United States all the time you were
serving?
A. Most of the time I was in Europe.
Q. Okay. You were I believe, Mr. Ray,
what is called an MP, is that correct, military
police?
A. No. I was in four or five different
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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organizations. I was in -- I started out in
the quartermaster for about seven or eight
months, and then I was in the military police
for eight or nine months. And then I was in
the infantry several months and I was
discharged. I was in the infantry at the time
I was discharged.
Q. How old were you when you were
discharged?
A. About 20 years old.
Q. Okay. And where were you discharged
from, what location were you discharged from?
A. I believe it was Camp Kilmer, New
Jersey.
Q. When you were discharged, where did you
go from there?
A. Well, I didn't go any certain place. I
know I was in Quincy, Illinois, for a while
after I was discharged.
Q. Did you have an employment there?
A. No, not at that time.
Q. Okay. When did you have your next
employment after you were discharged from the
service?
A. I don't believe I had any employment
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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after I was discharged from the service.
Q. You never were employed on any job at
all?
A. No. After you got out of the military,
they give you so much money every month for a
year.
Q. Okay. Did you continue living in
Quincy, Illinois, or did you go somewhere else
after that?
A. Well, I was in different places. I
can't recall them all because it's been a long
time. I lived in that general area, Quincy or
Alton, Illinois, generally in the St. Louis,
Missouri, area.
Q. Tell me the first time that you -- that
you were arrested and found guilty and served
time that you can remember?
A. The first time I think it was in 1949.
I would say about October of 1949.
Q. What state was that?
A. California.
Q. Did you have a trial or did you enter a
guilty plea?
A. No, I just entered a plea for attempted
burglary or -- I believe that's the charge.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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I'm not certain of that.
Q. How much time did you serve?
A. I was on probation for two years.
Q. Okay. Where did you serve your time or
you said you didn't serve time?
A. No, I was --
Q. All right. I'm sorry. And when you
were on probation, Mr. Ray, where were you
living?
A. Chicago, Illinois.
Q. Okay. Were you arrested any more after
that?
A. Well, I lived in Chicago for, let's
see, from 1950, the spring of 1950, until the
spring of 1952, and I was arrested for a
robbery in 1952. So I would say about May of
1952.
Q. That was in the state of Illinois?
A. That's correct. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what happened, did you --
were you convicted or did you plead guilty to
the charge of robbery?
A. Yes, I entered a guilty plea to the
robbery charge, yes.
Q. And did you serve time?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. Yes.
Q. How much?
A. Two years.
Q. Where did you serve it?
A. Pontiac, Illinois.
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Ray, you lived in the
Chicago area you said from 1950 to 1952 and did
you have any type of employment during this
period of time?
A. Yes. I worked all the time I was up
there.
Q. Where did you work?
A. I can't remember all the places that I
worked. I worked about three different places.
When I was arrested, I was working in Borg
Ericson, E R I C S O N, they made scales.
Q. What is the name of it again?
A. Borg Ericson. B O R G, I believe it
was, Ericson and they were --
Q. And they're in Chicago?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. All right. Now, you had a
robbery charge. You entered a guilty plea.
You had two years in prison. And when you were
released, where did you go from there?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. I went to Quincy, Illinois.
Q. Okay. And did you work anywhere there?
A. No.
Q. Were you subsequently arrested any more
for anything after that?
A. Yes. I was arrested for burglary in
Alton, Illinois, in --
Q. Okay. And what happened to that
charge?
A. Well, I got out on bond, and I can't
remember the date now. It must have been 1955
I would guess.
Q. Okay. Did you enter a guilty plea or
were you tried -- have a trial?
A. I never was -- that case was I think
nolle prossed or whatever you call it.
Q. All right. And then after that what
happened to you?
A. I was arrested again. Subsequently I
was arrested for I think transporting state --
stolen documents across the state line.
Q. Okay. And what state was that in?
A. That was in Missouri. It was a federal
charge.
Q. And did you have any trial or enter a
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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guilty plea on that?
A. I entered a guilty plea on that and
received three years -- and --
Q. Where did you serve your time?
A. Forty-five months in Leavenworth,
Kansas.
Q. After you were released from there,
where did you go next?
A. I was released from there in 1958 I
believe it was.
Q. Okay. Where did you move or where did
you live then?
A. Oh, I went to Saint -- yes, I went to
St. Louis, Missouri.
Q. Did you have any employment there?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Okay. Who did you live with there,
Mr. Ray, anyone?
A. Well, I lived with myself mostly.
Q. Okay. Were you arrested any more then?
A. Yes. After about a year and a half
there, I was arrested for armed robbery, yes.
Q. Anyone arrested with you?
A. And car theft. Yes, someone, an
individual named James Owens.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. Okay. And that was in the St. Louis
area?
A. Yes, that was in St. Louis, yes.
Q. All right. And what happened to that
charge?
A. Well, I went to trial on that charge,
and I received a 20 year sentence.
Q. Okay. Where did you serve your time?
A. At Jefferson City, Missouri. I never
did serve the complete sentence. I escaped
before time had expired.
Q. Okay. How much time did you serve
before you escaped?
A. Well, I guess about six and a half
years, something like that.
Q. Was this the -- in other words, this is
the time you actually escaped and you made --
in the bread truck; is that correct?
A. Yes. That's correct.
Q. Now, you had tried to escape or did
escape I believe or attempted to before that,
am I correct, sir?
A. Yes, twice, yes.
Q. Did you actually get out of the prison
compound on the other --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. No, I didn't.
Q. When you were in the prison in
Jefferson City, Missouri, I believe you worked
as a cook or in the bakery.
A. Yes, I had several jobs, but when I
escaped, I was working in the -- a section of
the bakery.
Q. You had had, Mr. Ray, I think some
training to mix dyes at some point, am I
correct, sir?
A. Well, that's when I was working for the
shoe company in 19 -- when I was in Hartford,
the job I mentioned previously in 1944 I
believe it was.
Q. Did you -- after you left there, did
you ever work anywhere in this type trade where
you were mixing dyes and those type things?
A. No, I haven't -- no.
Q. Okay. Now, what year did you escape
from -- the last time, in the bread truck?
A. Well, that would have been in 1967,
April.
Q. All right. Now, you -- I believe you
had left and you eventually made your way to
the Chicago area, am I correct?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. Yes. That's correct.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Well, I think a little over two months
I would say. Eight or ten weeks.
Q. When you were there two months,
Mr. Ray, did you work any place?
A. Yes, I worked in a restaurant in
Winnetka, Illinois, which is a suburb of
Chicago.
Q. Okay. And you were there about two
months?
A. Yes, approximately, maybe a little bit
longer. I'm not certain.
MR. BLEDSOE: And then Mr. Pepper
states: Excuse me, Miss Parks, if you have
problems with any of the spelling of any of the
names, please let us know. Resuming question.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, when you left the
Chicago area, where did you go then?
A. Well, after I accumulated a certain
amount of identification, I was -- I was
working under a false name of John L. Rayns.
Q. How did you spell that last name?
A. R A Y N S.
Q. Okay. Go ahead.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1745
A. After I left there, it was my
intentions to go to a foreign country. So I
had one more check coming so I went to Quincy,
Illinois, and I stayed around there eight or
ten days, I guess. I'm not certain just how
long.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, I want to back up a
moment here. Back in the time you were serving
in the last prison where you escaped from --
A. Yes.
Q. -- did you ever serve any time where
there was some black prisoners that you were
confined with?
A. Well, there's blacks in all prisons,
yes.
Q. But my question is, did you serve any
time in the area where there were black
prisoners?
A. Oh, yes, they're all mixed in.
Q. So your answer is yes, you did serve
where there were black prisoners integrated in
the area where you were serving -- where you
were in the cell, in that cell block; is that
correct?
A. Well, the cell blocks were segregated
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1746
but, you know, you're on the yard and things of
that nature.
Q. Okay. And was there one time when you
had a chance to be transferred -- I'm sure you
have been asked this before -- and you turned
it down because there were black people in the
area where you would be transferred in the cell
block area?
A. I was talking -- excuse me, are you
talking about Jefferson City?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, no, I think what you're talking
about is the Leavenworth, the Leavenworth
prison.
Q. Okay. Did that happen, just what I
just --
A. No, not necessarily it happened. At
the time I was in Leavenworth, I was due to be
discharged in about five or six months. And at
the time they offered to send me outside to
work in what they call the dormitories.
Q. Now we are talking about Leavenworth,
the federal prison.
A. The federal prison. I was inside the
walls and they offered -- I could go outside
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1747
and work in the dormitories and one of the
other prisoners told me that people had been
getting drug charges out there. If you get --
I think the procedure was if you were arrested,
if there was marijuana, I'm talking about
marijuana, if you were arrested, you could get
two years if you entered a guilty plea. If you
went to trial, you got ten years. And their
position was that, it seemed to me, the general
consensus was most of the blacks smoked
marijuana and the whites were drinking alcohol.
So I didn't want to go out there under those
conditions where everyone was mixed up in the
same dormitory room. So I didn't go out there.
Q. You turned it down?
A. Yes. It had nothing to do with any
race issue.
Q. Okay. When you were working in Chicago
at the restaurant, were there people of the
black race working there with you?
A. In Chicago? Just about all except me
and one other individual. I think there was
about -- there was about seven or eight there
in the restaurant and I think it was two
whites, me and another guy. And that's not
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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counting the waitresses. The waitresses, I
don't know about those, they worked out in
front.
Q. What was the reason you left that job
in Chicago?
A. What was the reason? Well, there was
several reasons. I just went to work there to
accumulate some money. When I escaped from the
Missouri prison, I had $250. I wanted to
accumulate some more money to where I could go
to Canada. Also I was concerned about -- I was
using one of my brother's Social Security
numbers and I was concerned that it might get
checked and find out that, you know -- I mean,
it wasn't me. So there really was no point in
staying there any longer. I accomplished what
I set out to do. I got the identification. I
got -- I made seven or eight hundred dollars
and so I was ready to leave.
Q. All right. What type of identification
did you get?
A. Well, when I escaped, I didn't have
nothing except the Social Security number.
Q. You had no card?
A. No, I didn't have the card.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. Just a number?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Go ahead.
A. While I was up there, I purchased a car
and I got it underneath the Ryan name -- the
Rayns name.
Q. Okay. Was the Social Security card
issued to you in that name, is that what you
got?
A. The Social Security number?
Q. No. You said you got something. What
kind of identification did you get? Was it a
Social Security card, driver's license or what?
A. No. Well, when I escaped from prison,
the only identification I had was a Social
Security number. My brother, he had seven or
eight apparently, and he gave me one of them to
use.
Q. Okay.
A. So I went to work at the restaurant in
Winnetka, Illinois, I gave them my Social
Security number and my name as being John L.
Rayns. Subsequently about the identification I
purchased a car I think for a hundred dollars
under the Rayns name and I got a title, which
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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is, you know, identification.
Q. Okay.
A. And then I went and took the driver's
test and got a driver's license.
Q. That's in the state of Illinois?
A. That's the state of Illinois.
Q. What name did you use?
A. The John L. Rayns name.
Q. Is that the name you were working --
using at the restaurant, John L. Rayns?
A. Yes, John L. Rayns, yes.
Q. Okay. Had you ever used that name
before this?
A. No. As I mentioned, it wasn't really
one of my aliases. I just got that -- I
borrowed it from my brother.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, tell me the first alias
you used, if you recall, other than your real
name?
A. You mean to begin with all the way
back?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. That would be hard to say. I have used
quite a few of them.
Q. Well, tell me the first one you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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remember using.
A. Probably the first one I used was in
Mexico in 1955 I believe it was. I think I
used James, James O'Connor.
Q. James O'Connor?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let me ask you something about
that. Did you have any kind of a Social
Security card, driver's license or anything
with that name on it ever?
A. No. At that period of time Social
Security cards were -- they were not good
identification. The purpose was not for
identification at that time. I know now they
are, but they wouldn't accept that type of --
Q. But did you ever have any kind of
identification, driver's license, title of
any -- of an automobile, anything with that
name on it?
A. What name is that?
Q. James O'Connor.
A. Apparently I did. I was -- if I
crossed the border with the car because I know
Mexican customs officials check your title and
your driver's license.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. And you were in Mexico in 1955; is that
correct?
A. Let's see, what year was that? No,
that would have been -- no, it wasn't 1955. It
was 1959. That's when it was.
Q. All right. Did you ever actually know
anyone named James O'Connor?
A. I never did know anyone like that. I
know when I was arrested the detective's name
was that and he got kind of upset about it.
But I didn't use -- I didn't get it because it
was his name. I didn't even know him.
Q. Okay. Tell me the next alias you used
that you remember.
A. Well, I can't recall any more now. I
might use one in a motel, but I can't recall
something I would use over night or something.
Probably the only ones that I can recall
subsequently was -- is the ones I used after I
escaped from the Missouri prison.
Q. Well, okay. Let's go back when you
were in Los Angeles, what name did you use out
there?
A. I think I used my regular name, James
Ray.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. When you were going through bartending
school, what name did you use?
A. Now you're talking about Los Angeles?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. In 1949 or just this last time?
Q. When you were going through bartending
school.
A. Well, I was using the name Eric S.
Galt.
Q. And did you have any identification
with that on it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what identification did you have,
driver's license, Social Security, anything
else?
A. Driver's license. And in Alabama they
have what you call a bill of sale for an
automobile and I had some other cards and
things of that nature to supplement the
driver's license.
Q. Now, before you use the name of Eric
Galt, what other names had you used, aliases,
that you remember before that?
A. Well, after I escaped I used the name
John L. -- John L. Rayns and that's the only
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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one I used.
Q. That's the only one you've ever used?
A. Well, that's the only one I used -- no,
I used some after the Galt name but that --
Q. Okay.
A. The first time was Rayns and then I
went from Rayns to Galt.
Q. Okay. All right. Now, we are at the
point where you had lived in Chicago and worked
at a restaurant under the name of John L. Rayns
for two months. Where did you go when you left
there?
A. Well, as I mentioned earlier, I went to
Chicago. I was working on a check. I had a
check due and I stayed around. I left Chicago
and went to Quincy, Illinois, for eight or ten
days.
Q. All right. And you had a car at that
time; is that right?
A. Yes, I had a car.
Q. And you bought the car in the name of
John L. Rayns?
A. Yes.
Q. And you lived in Quincy. How long did
you live there?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. Well, I stayed there eight or ten days.
Q. We are looking at 1967, about that
time; is that correct?
A. Yeah. That would be around late June
or early July of 1967, yes.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, when you -- before you
escaped, was there times when you and some of
the other people that were there with you had a
discussion about Doctor Martin Luther King?
A. No, I don't have no recollection.
Q. You never discussed it with anybody?
You never even heard his name called all the
time you were in prison before you escaped?
A. If I did, I don't have no recollection
of it. I mean, there is all sorts of people,
you know, their names might come up but you
don't have -- since you're not interested in
them, you wouldn't have no recollection of
them. At that time we didn't have no
televisions or radios or things of that nature,
so...
Q. Are you aware of the fact that -- I
know you are because you have been at this a
long time -- that there are prisoners who gave
affidavits saying you did talk about Doctor
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Martin Luther King. You are aware of that,
aren't you?
A. I have read some of these affidavits
and I think there is one person that testified
to that. I know he was -- I know he was an
informant so I assume he just made up the
story. But I have read some of the statements.
I got the Congressional committee that
investigated the Martin Luther King case in
19 -- when was it?
MR. BLEDSOE: Doctor Pepper states
19 -- 1977, 1978.
A. Yes, 1977, 1978. I got some of those
statements and I think it was just one
individual that said that I ever mentioned
Martin Luther King.
Q. Was that true?
A. No, he was -- like I say, he was an
informant, and he wasn't in the Missouri prison
anyway. I think he was -- yes, he was in the
Missouri prison, but I think he checked in what
he is called protective custody after he said
that.
Q. Let me ask you this: Did you ever
discuss the assassination of President Kennedy
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1757
with any of the people while you were in the
prison before you escaped?
A. I have no recollection of any convicts
ever talking about him. It might have been
maybe one or two days or something, but usually
if you're in the penitentiary, you have other
things that concern you, personal things rather
than politicians.
Q. Well, when President Kennedy was
assassinated, were you in prison then?
A. Yes, I was in the Missouri prison.
Q. How did you learn about it?
A. I think someone told me or something.
Probably come by the cell and told me because
as I mentioned we didn't have -- we did have
ear phones in one station but we didn't have
access to too much news.
Q. Okay. Did you ever have any discussion
with any of the prisoners or anyone else that
if someone assassinated Doctor Martin King,
they would make a lot of money?
A. Did I ever have any questions? No, I
never have.
Q. You never had any discussions before
the assassination of Doctor King with any
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1758
person?
A. No.
Q. Now, you're aware again of the
affidavit that's been given stating that you
did say that?
A. I haven't seen these, all these
affidavits. I have seen one of them -- this --
an individual who was -- gave a story to the
Ebony magazine I think. I can't think of his
name but I know his -- there's 15 or 20 of
these affidavits. In all of them one party
says one thing and one says another.
MR. BLEDSOE: And Doctor Pepper
states: Counsel, you have any particular
affidavits you would like Mr. Ray to review?
Mr. Garrison: Not at the moment.
A. But --
Q. Go ahead.
A. But most of these are convicts. If I
drop dead today, you could probably go out here
and get a hundred affidavits saying that I
confessed to killing Martin Luther King. So I
don't put too much credibility in what
informants say.
Q. Okay. The person that you have seen
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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the affidavits, was that person that you were
in a cell with or close to when you were
serving? Do you know the name of the
individual?
A. Well, first, I celled alone. I didn't
cell with anyone when I was there. I was in a
single cell most all the time I was in the
Missouri prison. I think maybe three or four
months I was in with another individual, but I
preferred a cell to myself so I usually celled
in a single cell. I can't think of this
individual's name. He was in Leavenworth when
I came -- when I went there, but I think they
transferred him to another place because he was
informing against these accomplices. That's
when I went to Leavenworth in 1955. And I
can't think of anyone else that's made these
affidavits.
Yes, that's his name, Ray Curtis. I
can't think of anyone else that made a hostile
affidavit against me except the one James
Bradley. He said something about he thought I
was dealing in drugs but that doesn't have
anything to do with the Martin Luther King
case. But I have never seen any affidavits
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1760
where -- saying that I mentioned Martin Luther
King.
Q. Tell me, Mr. Ray, when and where you
first met a gentleman named Raul?
A. That would have been in Montreal,
Canada, in July of 1968.
Q. Okay. Where did you meet him?
A. A place called the Neptune Bar in
Montreal, in east Montreal.
Q. Okay. Had you ever been in the Neptune
Bar before this day that you met him?
A. I could -- before I met him there I
possibly could have been there once or
something because I was in that general area.
Q. Had you ever been in Montreal before
this time?
A. Yes. I had been in Montreal another
time, yes.
Q. How long had you been in Montreal?
A. Before that or that or this?
Q. When you met him, how long had you been
in Montreal?
A. I really hadn't been there very long.
I can't tell you just exactly how many days.
Q. Are we looking at days, weeks, months
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1761
or what?
A. Yes, it would be days. Yes.
Q. You left Chicago and had gone to
Quincy, Illinois, and how long did you stay
there?
A. Where?
Q. Quincy, Illinois.
A. Probably eight or ten days.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. I went to Montreal from there. I went
back to Chicago and got a check and then I went
to Montreal.
Q. All right. You drove an automobile to
Montreal?
A. Yes.
Q. When you got to Montreal the first
time, is this the first time you had been
there, ever been to Montreal?
A. No. I had been there before.
Q. When were you there before this?
A. 1959.
Q. And how long did you stay in Montreal
in 1959?
A. I stayed -- I think I stayed there
about three weeks.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1762
Q. Do you remember where you stayed?
A. I can't remember the place. I know I
stayed fairly close to the train station.
Q. Now, between 1959 and this time had you
been in Montreal any more?
A. No, that was it.
Q. And what was your purpose in going to
Montreal?
A. In 1959?
Q. The last time. This last time you were
up there when you -- after 1959, the next time
you were in Montreal what was your purpose in
going there?
A. The last time you're talking about?
Q. Well, you were there in 1959 and you
said you were back again. That's where we are
right now.
A. In 1959 I was -- the police was after
me in 1959.
Q. All right.
A. Of course, they was after me again in
1968, too, but it was different circumstances.
Q. But you -- from 1959 you had never been
back in Montreal until 1968?
A. No, I hadn't.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1763
Q. In 1968 what did you go to Montreal
for?
A. Well, I assumed the FBI or the police
were after me at that time in connection with
the Martin Luther King, Jr., homicide.
Q. Okay. What made you think that?
A. Well, I would have to go -- to explain
that I would have to go back to where I was on
April 4th, 1968.
Q. Okay. Where were you on April 4th,
1968?
A. I was in Memphis, Tennessee.
Q. And what made you think they were after
you?
A. Well, this is sort of a complicated
thing. I will start April 3rd -- well, anyway
in April. I won't go over all the details on
April 3rd. Anyway I met this individual named
Raul on April 3rd in a motel called The Rebel,
the New Rebel motel I think it was. And he
asked me to -- we had been involved in other
things which I won't get into and he asked me
to meet him at a place he wrote down on a
paper, I think it was Jim's Grill, the next
day. He gave me the address, I think it was
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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422 and a half Main.
Now, on April -- that was on April
3rd. I do recall it was raining that night.
Now, on April 4th that time I had a rifle also
with me when I was -- on April 3rd, and I
turned that over to him on April -- that night.
Then on April 4th I think I was
supposed to meet him there at Jim's Grill
probably about 3:30. Now, on April 4th I
checked out of the motel, I would just guess
about 11 o'clock or whenever they ring you out
of them places. And I was -- it was too early
to go to -- you know, to have this meeting set.
So I just more or less stalled around. And
I -- on the outside of Memphis, the outskirts
of Memphis I would say. I had a -- I was
getting ready to come back and have this
meeting and I had a flat tire so I had to fix
it.
Q. Where were you when you had the flat
tire?
A. It was somewhere south of Memphis. But
I'm not certain just where it was at.
Q. Okay.
A. So I changed the tire myself. I know
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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it was outside. It was probably in Mississippi
is probably where it was at, right outside of
Memphis. So anyway I changed the tire and then
I went to -- drove into Memphis proper. And I
would say about ten or twelve blocks from
downtown I drove into a parking lot and I was
going to leave the car there and find out, you
know, this address. And the parking lot
attendant -- I asked, I asked him about the
address and he said something about it was
uptown or I think I -- I think what I asked him
specifically was where was uptown at. So --
Q. Had you ever been to Memphis before
this?
A. No, I never had been there, no. So I
did -- I walked uptown and went -- I could see,
you know, the high-rise buildings up there, and
I asked a policeman where this address was and
I had it wrote down. And he gave me general
directions.
Well, I got on South Main Street and I
went into a bar on the right side. I think it
was -- I don't know if I'm -- I could be
mistaken but I think it was Jim's something.
Whether it was or not anyway, I went in there.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Now this is on the right-hand side of the
street going south, and I asked him about this
address and he said -- it was a woman. She was
tending bar and she said that it was down the
street on the left a block or so.
And while I was in there, there was
two individuals in there. I thought maybe they
were what appeared to be watching me. So when
I went in the place, I usually buy, you know,
something, a sandwich or a bottle beer. But I
don't drink beer, but I buy it. You know, you
just can't go in there and ask a bunch of
questions and sit around.
So when I left there, when I got to
Jim's Grill I was supposed to meet Raul in
this Jim's Grill, and he wasn't in there. But
these two individuals was. And I -- you know,
I was kind of concerned anyway because we was
dealing in rifles and things of that nature.
So anyway Raul wasn't there. So I
thought I would go get the car, the Mustang,
where I parked it in the parking lot and drive
it back up to the -- park in that general area
of Jim's Grill.
So I went back and got the Mustang and
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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parked it, and I don't think I parked right
directly in front of Jim's Grill. It's my
strong recollection I parked it about ten or
fifteen feet south of where you -- where the
door is. And when I went in this time Raul
wasn't -- he was in there this time, and we
had -- we had a brief discussion, and I think
he asked me where I was at. He seemed mainly
interested in the Mustang.
So when we went out the door, he
wanted me to rent a room upstairs he said. So
anyway we went out the door. I pointed the
Mustang out to him because he was concerned
that I had it there. And so I went upstairs
and rented a room, and I don't know where he
went. He could have went back in Jim's Grill.
He could have sat in the Mustang. He had a set
of keys to the Mustang.
And after I was up there a short
while -- well, first I went and seen the
individual that rented the rooms. And to the
best of my recollection, I walked up and turned
right. And I walked down a small foyer I guess
it was and I turned -- came up the steps and I
went through and seen -- I went to the office.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1768
And the lady up there, I subsequently learned
her name was Bessie Brewer. I told her I would
like to rent a room for a week I think it was,
and so she had two rooms.
So she showed me two different rooms.
One of them was a sleeping room and one of them
was some type of room where you cook in. So I
told her I was just interested in a sleeping
room. So she rented me the sleeping room.
So after I had been up there, I wasn't
up there too long, Raul had come up there and
he -- we started talking, and he said that we
might be around there two or three days, a
couple of days, and he said, I should bring in
my clothing and everything I had and put it in
the room. So -- but I didn't do that. I think
I mentioned to him or that the -- you know, the
place was a wino's place because I could tell
that. I had been familiar with them type of
establishments.
But there was no door handles on the
door. They had a strap on them and they had a
strap on their door. So -- but I did bring an
overnight case up there, and I think I brought
a -- something else up there, something to
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1769
sleep on or something. I think it was a sheet
or something.
So after we was up there a few minutes
and was talking about just general things, he
asked me to go down the street and check on a
pair of infrared binoculars. So he told me
generally where it was at. It was down the
street on the right somewhere. So anyway I
started. I looked for it, but I couldn't
locate the place. I think -- I believe this is
about 4:30 probably when I first rented the
room, the time I rented the room.
Anyway, I couldn't locate the place so
I came back up and asked him more specific
directions. So he told me more specific, but I
don't think I walked far enough I think is what
happened. So I went back and I asked the guy
about the infrared binoculars, and he inferred
that I would have to get them at the Army
surplus. He said he just had binoculars but he
said he didn't have any attachments to put on
them where you could see at night.
So anyway I just got -- I just
purchased the binoculars, what he showed me,
and I went back to the room and I just more or
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1770
less set them on the bed and told Raul that if
he wanted the infrared, he would probably have
to get them through the military surplus.
So I hadn't eaten in a while -- in
quite a while by that time so I -- I had missed
lunch on account of having a flat tire so I
went back down to the -- I told him I was going
down to eat and I went down to a place
called -- I subsequently learned -- a policeman
told me it was the Chickasaw Restaurant. I
think he sat on the corner. I believe he said
it was underneath a hotel, and I don't know
what I ate there, ice cream or something. I
know I ate. And I recall -- apparently it was
the manager. He was instructing the --
apparently a new employee, a young black lady,
how to operate the cash register.
So anyway when I -- I stayed around
there a few minutes, I guess five or ten
minutes and I was back to the rooming house and
I -- I possibly -- I sat in the car a little
while, in the Mustang, before I went back up to
the rooming house. I have some recollection of
sitting in the Mustang.
So anyway, when I went back up to the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1771
rooming house, Raul, he was up there and he
suggested -- you know, he was going to meet
with some people later on that evening, and he
suggested that I go to a movie or do something
and not come back for a while. So I left there
and went back downstairs and I crossed the
street and went about two blocks up, and I
stopped in a restaurant. And I just more or
less sitting there, I think I had a beer or
something, and I was going to a movie. And
then I got to thinking about having a flat tire
earlier that day so I thought I would get it
fixed.
So I drove back -- I walked back down
to the rooming house, and got the Mustang and
then I pulled out of the -- waited in front of
the -- this Jim's Grill, and I don't know just
how far I drove. I may have drove three or
four or five or six blocks. But after driving
several blocks, I turned right and I think I
went either one or two blocks down there and I
turned right again. It was my intention to try
to get the tire fixed and then go park right
where I was.
I stopped at one service station and
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1772
he said something about it was a busy time and
where he couldn't do it at that time. He was
busy, and I think there was another service
station on another corner, I'm not certain if I
went over there or not. I possibly could have
but I wouldn't testify to it under oath or
swear to it.
But anyway I went on back after this,
the attendant said couldn't fix it. I went --
kept going on south and I turned right and went
up to Main Street and I was going to turn right
again. Well, when I got to Main Street, I
noticed -- I looked down Main Street, and it
looked like three or four individuals or
policemen was running around down there, and I
think -- and I believe a squad car or a police
car was parked in -- blocking off the
intersection or blocking off the street or
something. It looked like he was waving
around, waving his hands around and possibly
waving people off.
So I just turned left instead of
turning right and I entered an area. It
appeared to be kind of a rundown area. It was
a lot of -- I think it was probably what you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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call a black neighborhood. So I drove real
slow through the -- slow through this
neighborhood and finally I come out on Main
Street, and it was my intentions to -- I had a
phone number in New Orleans, it was Raul's
number.
It was my intention once I got down
there to get on the outside of Memphis, maybe
three or four miles and call him up and ask
him, you know, if there was anything going on
down there because I know there was at least
one gun down there. I assumed there was one
gun down there and I tried to find out if the
police had raided the place.
So I would say about 15 minutes, I'm
not positive on this, they said that, there was
a bulletin that came over the radio saying that
Reverend Martin Luther King had been shot. So
I didn't pay too much attention to that. Just
I kept on driving, and it wasn't too long after
that it said -- I guess I was fairly close to
the edge of town. It said they were looking
for a white man in a white Mustang in
connection with the shooting of Reverend King.
So I decided then I would, you know,
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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get out of Dodge, so to speak. So instead of
making any phone calls, I just kept going south
into Mississippi. And the first -- the first
highway I came to and made a left turn, I made
a left turn and then went -- and then I went on
to -- I returned -- from there I went on into
Atlanta and then from Atlanta I went to Detroit
and then back to Canada.
Q. Okay. Let me, Mr. Ray, back up now.
You had left Quincy, Illinois, to go to
Montreal. That was in 1967 I believe you said.
How long did you stay up there before you left?
A. How long did I stay in Montreal?
Q. We are talking about 1967, after you
had escaped.
A. Yeah. I would say about 30 days.
Generally 30.
Q. Is this when you met Raul that first
time you were there?
A. Yes, sir, that was in 1967, yes.
Q. Okay. Do you remember where you were
living up there in Montreal? Were you living
in a motel or a boarding home or how were you
living?
A. It was sort of an apartment complex. I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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think it was the -- I can't think of the name
of it. It was in south Montreal, what they
call the French section.
Q. And all the money you had at that time
was the money you had been paid at the
restaurant; is that correct?
A. No. That isn't correct. I escaped
with two hundred fifty dollars and at the
restaurant I made seven or eight hundred
dollars. Of course I purchased another car.
The car I purchased broke down and I had to buy
a Plymouth. I think when I got to Montreal, I
don't know how much I had, but I didn't have
too much.
Q. How much did you pay for the Plymouth?
A. A hundred and ninety-five dollars I
believe it was. Now, what I did in Montreal
the first day I was there, the fact is I set
the thing up before the day I moved into
Montreal. I held up -- at the time what you
call The Expo was there, The International
Exposition, and I robbed the brothel and I got
about seventeen or eighteen hundred dollars out
of it.
Q. Did you have a gun?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where did you get the gun?
A. I had a .38 which I had purchased in
Birmingham, Alabama.
Q. Now, you have lost me. I thought you
had gone from Quincy, Illinois, to Montreal?
A. I had. But I had purchased the .38 --
no, wait a minute. That's -- that was another
gun I had. The -- we get out of sequence and
you get things mixed up. When I quit the job
in Montreal in --
Q. Chicago?
A. In Winnetka, Illinois, and went to
Quincy I went back to Chicago and got my check
and then I came to East St. Louis. I was going
to see my brother and I was going -- before I
left the country, I was going to arrange for
help and get him help, post office box and
things where I could write him.
Q. Which one of your brothers?
A. This was John Ray.
Q. All right.
A. I had another brother in Chicago and
his name was Jerry Ray. I used the -- most of
my contacts were around the St. Louis area.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. How did you get the gun?
A. Well, there was a guy name Jack Gawron,
he was the -- I didn't know at the time but he
was an FBI informant.
Q. And where was he located?
A. Well, he lived in St. Louis. He lived
in St. Louis.
Q. All right. And how did you get in
touch with him?
A. Well, he didn't have no telephone, but
he had a bar where he took -- he took the
phones. He is in and out of this bar all the
time, and I called this bar and I made
arrangements for him to come and meet me in
East St. Louis, Illinois.
Q. How did you find out you could buy a
gun from him?
A. I didn't buy no gun from him. I knew a
fence in Madison, Illinois, so...
Q. What was your purpose in meeting
Mr. Gawron, Jack Gawron?
A. When did I first meet him?
Q. No, sir. I said what was your purpose
in meeting him?
A. Well, I was going to give him a message
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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to give to my brother John Ray.
Q. All right.
A. I was going to see John, but I thought
maybe the police had him under surveillance, so
my brothers knew Gawron for a long time and
they trusted him and everything. They were in
the penitentiary with him in Illinois in Minard
Prison.
So anyway the Gawron, we went to
Madison and at that time I didn't have enough
money really to buy a gun. So he said he was
going to take it care of it and I guess he did
and I think he got --
Q. When you went to Madison, did you drive
your car or did he ride with you or did you
ride with him?
A. No, he couldn't -- he didn't have no
car.
Q. So he rode with you?
A. Yes, he rode with me.
Q. How far did you go with him? How many
miles did you drive?
A. From East St. Louis to Madison it's a
short distance. I would say it's about six or
seven miles.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. Now, you -- who gave you his name? How
did you get acquainted with him, Jack Gawron?
A. Well, as I mentioned he knew my
brothers and he served time with them in Minard
Prison. Well, he got out on parole in 19 -- he
got out on parole in 19 -- I'm trying to think
when he got out on parole. When I got out of
Leavenworth, he got out of parole after I did.
Q. What was he there for in prison?
A. Apparently murder. He was on a life
sentence and he was -- he got out on parole
and that would have been 1955. At that time I
was selling wine. I was what they call
bootlegging and I met him -- well, my mother
she -- he came to see her and tell her, you
know, about my brothers, how they were getting
along, and I met him at her house.
Q. Now, when you were bootlegging, was
that before you were arrested to this last
sentence or was that before you escaped?
A. No, that was after I got out of
Leavenworth.
Q. Okay. That was between then and the
time you went back in for your last sentence
where you escaped.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. Yes.
Q. For robbery.
A. Yes. That would have been 1958, 1959,
yes.
Q. Okay. And where were you living when
you were bootlegging?
A. At that time I was living right on the
edge of more or less a wino neighborhood, but I
can't think of the name of the street. I
believe it was Lafayette Street.
Q. Was it in Quincy?
A. No, that was in St. Louis.
Q. Okay.
A. Lafayette Street in South St. Louis.
Q. Okay. Well, how did you know where he
was located and where to get in touch with him?
A. At that time?
Q. When you went with him to get a gun?
A. Well, as I mentioned, he didn't have no
telephone and I knew where he lived. But he
took messages at a bar. He was in most of the
time and they would give a message to him, and
I left a message with him, you know, where to
meet me.
Q. And he met you?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. Yes, he did.
Q. And he took you somewhere to East St.
Louis?
A. No, he -- yes, I met him in East St.
Louis. I gave him the name of a bar or
whatever.
Q. And he told you he would help you get a
gun or where to --
A. Well, I knew where to get the gun at.
I just took him down there and, you know, to --
he was going to pay for it after I left.
Q. Okay. How did you know where to get a
gun?
A. Well, I had dealt with this guy several
times before in 1954 and 1955.
Q. He was in St. Louis?
A. No, he was in Madison. He was a fence
in Madison.
Q. So had you bought guns from him before?
A. Yes, I had bought -- yes.
Q. Okay. And this gentleman, Gawron, rode
over there with you and you bought a .38?
A. Yes.
Q. From someone there in Madison?
A. Yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. Now, where did you go from there?
A. Well, then I went -- from there I went
to -- I think I went to Indianapolis, Indiana.
Q. Okay. What did you go there for?
A. Well, I was on my way to Canada.
Q. When is the first time, Mr. Ray, you
were ever in Alabama, what year was it?
A. It would be 1967.
Q. It was after you escaped?
A. Yes. That's after I come back from
Canada. It would be August of 1967.
Q. You were in Alabama?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what was -- did you spend
any time in Alabama in any city the first time
you were there?
A. Well, all the time I was there I was in
Birmingham. I was just there one time.
Q. Okay. And what did you go to
Birmingham for in 1967?
A. Well, when I met Raul in Montreal,
he -- I'm leaving out some testimony. There
was other things I done. I'm just going to
stick with him. I'm not going to go into other
things I have done.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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We made an arrangement to -- he was
going to get me a passport. I was trying to
get a passport. He called them traveling
documents if I would help him take certain
things across the border in my Plymouth I had.
And I agreed to do this and I did take some
stuff, some material across the border in the
back seat of my car in July of -- I guess it
would be in August of 1967.
Q. Okay.
A. Well, at that time he claimed he didn't
have no passport, but he did give me about
sixteen or seventeen hundred dollars. And
before that we agreed to go to meet in
Birmingham. Initially he wanted us to meet in
Mobile. And then I said, you know, I would
rather meet in a bigger town. But actually it
wasn't my intention at all -- once I got the
passport and some money, I intended to go back
to Canada and leave the country. But I didn't
get the passport and I didn't get -- but I did
get the money and so I did, you know, agree
to -- I met him there.
Q. And that was the first time to be in
Birmingham though? What was -- that was your
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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first time to ever be in Birmingham?
A. That's correct.
Q. The state of Alabama, period?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. When was the first time you were
ever in Atlanta in the state of Georgia?
A. Well, that's the first time I had ever
been there.
Q. On that same time?
A. Well, I was in -- I was in Atlanta --
no, I was in Atlanta -- in 1968 is the only
time I have ever been there. Now, one
exception is in 1955 I worked briefly for my
uncle and I went down there one time. I went
down to Florida one time, and he was -- he was
supposed to get a job down there. And we was
just down there three or four days. So I went
through the southern states. That's the only
time I have ever been through the southern
states.
Q. What was your uncle's name?
A. What?
Q. What was your uncle's name?
A. William Maher, M A H E R. We just
drove through there. It wasn't no overnight
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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stay or nothing. So I am not certain, I could
have -- in 1955 I could have been through some
of those towns but I have no recollection of
which town I went through.
Q. All right. Now, you had gotten a .38
in Madison and Mr. John Gawron was with you.
Where did you go from there?
A. I went to Indianapolis, Indiana.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Just over night.
Q. And then where?
A. I went to Detroit.
Q. And how long did you stay there?
A. I think what happened I was getting
kind of short on money. I think I slept in the
car one night. And I went to Detroit, and I
don't think I stayed there. I think I crossed
over and went right straight on into Canada. I
can't account for every day. And somewhere
in -- somewhere in Canada I think I slept in
the car maybe again. And then the first time I
rented a motel was in Dorion which is right
outside of Montreal. That's D O R I O N, I
believe is the way it is spelled. It's about,
like I say, three or four miles from Montreal.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. Mr. Ray, after you got the .38 in
Madison, did you have any -- did you hold up
any place or rob anyone or take any money from
anyone before you got to Montreal?
A. No, I didn't, no.
Q. All right. Then you -- eventually --
then you eventually did get to Montreal, right?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: Let's stop here and
take a break, please.
(Brief recess.)
(Jury out.)
THE COURT: Bring the jury out,
please, sir.
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: Mr. Garrison.
MR. GARRISON: We are going to
continue reading Mr. Ray's deposition.
THE COURT: All right.
(Whereupon, the following is the
continuation of the reading of the deposition
transcript of James Earl Ray.)
MR. BLEDSOE: Resuming the
deposition.
Q. Mr. Ray, after you got the .38 in
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Madison, did you have any -- did you hold up
any place or rob anyone or take any money from
anyone before you got to Montreal?
A. No, I didn't. No.
Q. All right. Then you eventually did get
to Montreal, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was in 1967?
A. Yes.
Q. About what month would that have been?
A. That would be sometime in July. I
imagine the latter part of July.
Q. And you had a what model Plymouth?
A. A 1962.
Q. Two door or four door?
A. I don't really -- I believe it was two
door, yes.
Q. What color was it?
A. I believe it was red.
Q. Did you know anyone in Montreal then?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And what was your purpose in going to
Montreal, what did you intend to do when you
got there?
A. I tried to get some travel documents
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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and leave the country.
Q. Now, how long had you been there when
you met Raul at this Neptune Bar?
A. It was just days after I had been
there. It hadn't been over I would say --
Q. A week, less than a week, more than a
week?
A. It probably was a week or six to seven
days. It wasn't -- I wouldn't want to get
pinned down on just how many days.
Q. Tell us something about this Neptune
Bar. What did it look like? Is it a big open
space or was it a very small bar where you go
to sit-up at the counter or can you describe it
for us.
A. Well, it's got these -- it looks like
a -- something on the windows, I think, where
it looks like a ship steering wheel or
something. Inside of it has got kind of heavy
tables and then there is a bar in there and --
I don't know. It's just another bar except
it's -- it's fixed up like it's a -- make a
seaman feel comfortable. I think it's pretty
close to the waterfront.
Q. Did they serve food?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A. I don't have no recollection. If they
did, I didn't order anything.
Q. Did they have men or women waitresses
and waiters or both or do you remember?
A. No, I think they had men. I think the
men served, bartenders.
Q. Okay. The first time you were in
there, is that something you just ran up on or
did you intend to go there when you -- in other
words, were you intending to stop at this bar
or was it just something you saw on the way?
A. Well, some of these bars get -- see, my
intention was when I went down there I
started -- when I started frequenting these
places, initially I had contacted a travel
agency when I first got there, and I asked them
how, you know, the procedure was to get a
passport and get out of the country.
Q. Do you remember what travel agency that
was?
A. No, I just made a telephone call.
Q. You just picked it out of the
directory?
A. Yes. And they told me that -- I
explained -- I put down some story about
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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identification or something. I was from a
different city in Montreal, and they told me
that if I didn't have sufficient -- something
about identification, that I would have to get
what you call a guarantor, someone I knew two
years, and they would vouch for me and swear
that I was who I said I was. So I didn't want
to wait around two years.
Q. What ID did you have on you then at
that point?
A. In the -- well, at that point I had --
I had the Rayns. I had rented the room under
the Rayns name, the apartment. The only thing
I had identification was the Rayns but not -- I
said I rented a room and now I may have rented
a room under the Galt name because I changed
sometime. As soon as I got there, I changed
from Rayns to Galt, so I'm not one hundred
percent certain.
Q. What ID did you have on you, driver's
license, Social Security card, anything?
A. I had a driver's license and a title.
Q. Where did you get the driver's license
from?
A. I got them -- I had got them in
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Chicago, Illinois.
Q. Under the name of Rayns?
A. Rayns, yes.
Q. And you had a title to the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that an Illinois title that you had
on the car?
A. Yes, East St. Louis, yes.
Q. When you got the driver's license in
Illinois, did you not have to show a birth
certificate or anything at that time to get the
driver's license?
A. No, they didn't ask for anything at
that time.
Q. Did you have to take a test to get --
some kind of examination to get --
A. Yes. Well, you can get a book and read
up on it, and then when you take the test, it
makes it a little easier.
Q. I mean, that's what you did?
A. Yes.
Q. Where -- and this is in Chicago where
you got the license?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was under the name of Raynes, R
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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A Y N E S?
A. R A Y N S, yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Ray, you went to the Neptune
Bar, and did you meet Raul the first time you
were there or was it later that you met him?
A. I don't believe it was the first time I
was there. It probably would have been the
second time I was there. It could have been
the first. But what I was -- I was going to
these bars and I was making certain inquiries,
nothing to get me in jail, but, you know, I was
thinking about the possibility of I could
either catch a merchant seaman drunk and, you
know, more or less roll him. Or I could -- of
course, a merchant seaman's papers is traveling
just like a passport or I could possibly buy
one. So someone possibly could have mentioned
my name to him so -- but it was earlier there.
It could have been the first time or it could
have been the second, but it was one -- it was
one of the first times I went in there.
Q. Okay. Were you at a table or sitting
at the counter or on a bar stool?
A. No, I was sitting at a table, yes.
Q. And were you there before he was or was
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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he there before you were?
A. No, I was there before he was.
Q. Were you sitting with anyone?
A. No.
Q. And he came in. How long had you been
there when he came in?
A. I can't recall. It probably wasn't --
it wasn't very long I don't think. Because I
never did stay around bars too long.
Q. Okay. Were there many people in the
bar at that time?
A. I don't believe there was, no.
Q. And when he came in, what attracted you
to him or how did you get the conversation
started with him?
A. I didn't start the conversation with
him. He sat down and started the conversation
with me, and we were just talking about general
things and I told him --
Q. Like what general things, the weather?
A. Yes. Where we was from and things of
that. Generally what we were doing. I think
he mentioned something about he might have -- I
can't recall everything he said. He might -- I
kind of got the impression he was in the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1794
Merchant Marines, and I told him I was in the
United States and I was interested in -- I was
interested in, you know, being on a ship and
things like that.
Q. When you were in this Neptune Bar, did
you have the gun with you?
A. No. I never carried the gun with me.
I still had the gun, but I wasn't -- I didn't
carry it around with me.
Q. Okay. Can you tell us this about
Raul, about what size person was he, was he
five foot ten, five foot eleven, five foot five
or was he taller than you or shorter than you?
A. Well, I'm five foot ten. I just
assumed he was around five foot eight or nine
or maybe a little -- somewhere in that general
area. It's hard to estimate people's weight,
but I didn't think he, you know, weighed a
whole lot.
Q. When he came in, what were you
drinking?
A. I was probably drinking a beer or
something like that.
Q. And when he came in, did he just come
straight to your table?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1795
A. Well, I really didn't know. I know he
showed up at the table. I usually don't pay
too much attention to people when I got in a
bar, and I usually don't stay in there too
long. Of course, I don't drink beer. I might
sit there, and, of course, as I mentioned
earlier, you have to buy something. I was just
more or less sitting there resting or thinking
what I was going to do next. I assume that is
what I was thinking about.
Q. So you were at the table by yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. When he came in, did he get anything to
drink, any beer or whiskey or anything that you
can recall first?
A. Yes, he probably got a beer. Yes, I'm
fairly certain of that because usually that's
the general practice.
Q. Okay. What was he dressed in? Was he
all dressed up or did he have on anything that
you can remember at this moment? Did he have
on a coat, shirt, what?
A. He just had a -- he just had a suit on
and a shirt.
Q. With a tie?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1796
A. No, he didn't have no tie on.
Q. A dress suit?
A. Yes. It was dark, a dark dress suit.
Q. Did he wear glasses?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. So he came over to your table, and you
were there by yourself and did he have
something in his hand to drink or did he order
something after he sat down there with you?
A. I really don't remember the small
details, but I'm certain he had something,
ordered something to drink.
Q. And you and this gentleman struck up a
conversation, just general things such as the
weather or something like that and how long did
you sit there with him?
A. Well, I don't know. It wasn't too
long. I mean, I have had -- I have had
hundreds of conversations in bars with people.
That's what usually gets me in the
penitentiary, but I was -- we didn't sit there
too long I don't think. We just started
talking and I was showing an interest in, you
know, travel documents or getting in the
Merchant Marine or something I think.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1797
Q. You told him then that you were the
first -- that you were -- the first time that
you were interested in some travel documents?
A. No, I don't think I mentioned it that
time. No, I just told him -- I told him I
liked to travel and, you know, Merchant Marine
or something like that.
Q. Okay. How long did the two of you talk
would you say that first night? I mean, are we
talking about a night or in the daytime?
A. No, this was in the daytime.
Q. Okay. Two o'clock in the afternoon,
five o'clock, what?
A. It was in the afternoon, but I couldn't
give you --
Q. Still daylight?
A. Yes. But it wasn't -- I know it wasn't
nighttime.
Q. I may have asked you earlier but how
long had you been in when he came in, just five
minutes, ten minutes, an hour or what?
A. I don't think I had been in there too
long because I --
Q. Less than hour?
A. The reason -- yes, the reason I say
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1798
that is because I don't stay in them places too
long.
Q. Okay. And you and Raul talked 30
minutes, an hour, what?
A. Yes. Maybe 15 or 20 minutes,
something, just talking.
Q. Who decided to leave first? Did you
say you had to go or he said he had to go or
what happened that you broke up?
A. Well, I think either me or him -- it
was probably him. He probably mentioned he had
to go somewhere or something. But we agreed to
meet again and just talk about things.
Q. What was the reason you agreed to meet
again when you met a man you had never seen for
15 minutes? What was the reason you agreed to
meet him again?
A. Well, he seemed -- I mean, I got the
impression from talking to him -- I have talked
to these people as I mentioned, you know,
several times in bars and things, and I just
got the impression from the way he acted and
the way he looked and the way he talked that I
might be able to make a deal with him. So I
didn't have anything else to do so I just --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. Now what led you to that? What did you
see about him that led you to that? I mean,
did he say something or are you just assuming
that from looking at him or what?
A. Well, the way he talked and he seemed
like -- he seemed to be -- he gave me the
impression he might help me or something like
that.
Q. But what did he say specifically that
made you think that?
A. Well, just the way he talked about
the -- you know, getting in the Navy and
things, getting in the Merchant Marines and
travel documents and I just -- I really didn't
have anything to lose so we discussed things,
and he said, you know, we will talk about it
some -- we will talk about it some other time.
And it didn't seem unusual to me at all.
Q. Did he tell you he had been in the
Merchant Marines?
A. I got the impression. He never did
tell me much of anything really, but I got the
impression from the conversation.
Q. All right. And you were there with him
15 minutes or so and you were just under the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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impression from the way he talked that he might
help you?
A. Yes, from what he said and things of
that nature.
Q. Did he ever say I know some way to help
you or I can get someone to help you or I
can -- anything that he could do for you that
you remember now?
A. He gave me that impression. I can't
remember all the details what he was saying,
the vibrations I was getting that he could do
it. He might be able to do it, and as I
mentioned, I just -- as I mentioned, I didn't
have anything else to do and I just agreed
to --
Q. Did you mention to him then you needed
a passport?
A. Not at the first meeting. We got
around to that later.
Q. Okay. When did you see him again?
A. Well, I think I seen -- I think I seen
him another time and --
Q. The next day, next week, next month?
A. Yes. I think it would be probably a
couple of days. I don't think it was the next
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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day.
Q. Was that an intentional meeting, you
intended to meet him or was that just a
by-chance meeting again?
A. No, we said we would meet somewhere.
Q. And where did you meet?
A. Well, we met at the same place there.
Q. Okay. Were you there first or was he
there first?
A. I was there first.
Q. All right. And when he came in, was he
dressed about the same as he was before or was
he dressed differently this time?
A. I don't know if he had the same -- he
was dressed about the same. I don't know if he
had the same suit -- same color suit on, but he
didn't have no tie on and he had his shirt
buttoned and collar, but that's the only thing
I noticed about him.
Q. Can you tell us something about -- what
would have been his weight roughly, what would
you just guess his weight to be?
A. Well, I thought he weighed about one
forty or forty-five pounds, but I just can't be
certain on someone's weight like that.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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Q. What color hair did he have?
A. He had a kind of a -- it was a dark
hair. It's not auburn, but it's real dark with
what I would call a slight red tint in it.
Some -- maybe dyed his hair or something.
Q. Did he have a part in his hair?
A. No. It was just kind of wavy and
combed back.
Q. Maybe I asked you earlier, was he
wearing glasses?
A. No.
Q. He was not wearing glasses. All right.
Anything else you observed about him, Mr. Ray,
such as was he right handed or left handed?
When he drank, would he use right hand or left
hand or did you observe him that closely?
A. No, I didn't observe him that -- no.
Q. Did he talk like he had been someone
that had been grew up in Canada or in Detroit
or someone in Tupelo, Mississippi, or where?
What was your impression of him?
A. Well, he had a somewhat Spanish accent
and I had had a lot of association with
Mexicans. I have been to Mexico before and in
Leavenworth I knew a lot of Mexicans. The fact
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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is I tried to learn to speak Spanish at one
time so I was certain that he was -- well, he
could have been something other than Spanish.
There is other people, you know, that speaks
the Latin language besides Spanish. But I just
assumed he was -- came from a Spanish speaking
country.
Q. Did you presume that from the way he
looked or the way he talked or both or what?
A. Well, the way he talked and the way he
looked, both.
Q. Was he light skinned, dark skinned,
medium, what, how would you --
A. No, he was sort of -- he was more dark
than the average Anglo-Saxon.
Q. The first time that you saw him did he
tell you his name?
A. Yes, he said it was just Raul.
Q. Did he pronounce it that way or was
it -- is that the way he pronounced Raul or
was it just Raul or do you believe --
A. I believe he kept pronouncing it Raul.
I don't think he -- he didn't just say Raul.
I think --
Q. What name did you give him as being
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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your name?
A. Well, at that time I gave him my name
as being Eric Galt.
Q. So that's what he knew you as then?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you tell him your full
name or just your first name the first time you
saw him?
A. I think I just told him -- probably
just told him Eric.
Q. Okay. And he told you his name was
Raul?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. The next time that you met
him you were there first and did he come in and
sit down at the table with you, same table or
close by the same area that you were?
A. Yes. It was the same general -- you're
talking about the second meeting?
Q. The second meeting, right.
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And did you begin having a
conversation with him then?
A. Yes. He got more deeply in the -- you
know, the -- you know, what we was talking
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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about.
Q. Okay. What did you tell him you wanted
out of him?
A. Well, I just told him I was interested
in, you know, travel documents and things of
that nature and --
Q. Okay. When you mentioned travel
documents, what do you mean specifically, visa,
passport or what, or both?
A. I don't really -- travel documents is
what -- he referred to that name. I
subsequently learned travel documents is --
what is it? It's a one-way ticket to a place
where there is no return. There is no return.
It's just that one way.
Q. Up to that point, Mr. Ray, had you ever
had a passport?
A. No, I hadn't.
Q. Ever had a visa or any reason to apply
for either one of those?
A. Well, I had one in Mexico, but you get
a visa going down there, but other than that I
never had one.
Q. You were in Mexico I believe you said
in 1959?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1806
A. Yes.
Q. And when you entered that country, what
name were you using?
A. I believe that's when I was using the
O'Connor name.
Q. The one you had mentioned earlier?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. How long did you and Raul
stay together this time, the second visit,
would you say?
A. I would say we stayed together a little
longer.
Q. Fifteen minutes, thirty, an hour?
A. Yes. We probably -- thirty minutes or
so. I don't -- I think we had a little
conversation after we left there, too.
Q. All right. Who left first, you or this
Raul?
A. Yes, I believe at that time we left at
the same time. We discussed some things, you
know, walking down the street.
Q. Okay. When you were in the Neptune,
what did you talk to him about the second visit
specifically?
A. That was about -- we got more specific
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1807
and I was talking about, you know, foreign
countries, going to foreign countries and
things like that. And he indicated he could
help me do --
Q. Did he tell you you would have to have
some money?
A. That I would have to have some money?
Q. For him to get this -- to help you.
You said he said he thought he could help. Did
he say you could have -- did he say you would
have to have some money?
A. I can't quite understand. Did he
want --
Q. Well, or --
A. Did he want me to pay him?
Q. That's right. Yes.
A. No. There was no -- never any question
about me giving him money, no. But --
Q. Did you tell him where you wanted to
go?
A. No, I didn't tell him where I wanted to
go, no.
Q. Okay. Now, you said you left with him
and you walked outside. And what did you talk
about when you walked outside?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1808
A. We made -- I had mentioned in the -- I
had mentioned in the bar and I probably
mentioned on the outside, too, that well -- I
wouldn't have mentioned it twice. I probably
went over the details when I went outside. At
that time I decided to try to possibly get one
from someone being my -- being a guarantor
because I was kind of concerned about getting
involved.
Q. You're talking about someone giving an
affidavit saying they knew you and could vouch
for you, that you were a citizen of Canada and
those type things; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. How were you going to do
that?
A. Well, I was thinking about trying to
meet a female and see if she could possibly
help me do it. So before -- I think before I
seen Raul the second time, I went to a travel
agency and asked him, you know, if there was
any resorts close by that I could go, you know,
for six days, six or seven days. And they gave
me one called the Gray Rocks and it's right
outside of Montreal.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1809
So anyway I met -- when I seen Raul,
I didn't tell him I was going to try to meet
someone and get me a guarantor. But I told him
I would be gone for a week and I had some
business to take care of. And he said, okay.
And so I did go to Gray Rocks and I did meet a
woman after I was up there about five or six --
five or six days I guess.
Q. Let me back up, Mr. Ray, a moment.
A. Yeah.
Q. When you went outside and you talked to
Raul --
A. Yes.
Q. -- how long did you stay out there with
him?
A. Oh, we was just walking down the
street. It wasn't very long.
Q. And he was driving a car?
A. If he was --
Q. Okay. You don't know how he left the
area?
A. No, I have no idea.
Q. And you left in your Plymouth?
A. No, I walked down there.
Q. Well, did you have a room at a hotel or
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1810
a rooming hall or something at that point?
A. Yes. I was living in south Montreal,
in the Ajax Apartments. I think it was about
4800 South Notre Dame Street was the name of
the street.
Q. Did you -- how were you financing this?
Where were you getting your money from then?
A. Well, I had two hundred fifty dollars
when I escaped from prison. I worked in the
restaurant a while and I had held up a brothel
for sixteen or seventeen hundred dollars. So I
don't know just exactly how much money I had,
but I had -- I wasn't really uptight for money.
Q. This brothel, was that before you met
Raul that you held it up?
A. Yes. That's the -- well, I had set it
up when I was in Dorion, the day before I went
to Montreal. I went up there that night, and I
met some woman at a bar and I went home with
her and I went to her apartment. And, you
know, I found out her address and the next day
I met her again.
Q. Okay. And you had gone to some man
that was sending business to her or her pimp I
guess, is that what he was?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1811
A. He was in the building, yes.
Q. Okay. And you had robbed him of how
much, sixteen or seventeen hundred dollars?
A. It was mixed bills, sixteen or
seventeen hundred dollars in United States and
Canadian currency.
Q. That was in Dorion?
A. No, that was in Montreal.
Q. It was in --
A. Dorion. I drove into Dorion and set it
up, the robbery, and then the next day I moved
into Montreal and rented the apartment. The
Harkay I think is the apartment on Notre Dame
Street. H A R.
MR. BLEDSOE: And then Mr. Pepper
interjects K A Y.
A. K A Y. And then I went ahead and
robbed the place.
Q. Well, you didn't know in advance before
you had gotten to Montreal whether you just --
you were going to do but you didn't know what
place or anything, am I correct?
A. Yes. I was fairly certain I was going
to do it because I was getting very short on
money and usually those places don't -- they
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1812
don't call the police on you anyway.
Q. That's what I'm saying. You were going
to do it but you didn't know what place then
until you got into Montreal?
A. No, I had no idea what place.
Q. Okay. When you had gone to Gray Rocks
and what -- then you had gone to Gray Rocks and
what happened there?
A. Well, as I mentioned, I did meet
some -- a lady up there after I was up there
about five or six days and I -- but I didn't
think that was, you know -- I didn't want to
approach her about something that was illegal
in just that short of time. You know, I
didn't, you know, know her long. So I never
did get into it.
Q. Okay. How long did you stay in Gray
Rocks?
A. Six or seven days.
Q. Okay. And then you returned to
Montreal?
A. Yes.
Q. And had you set up an appointment with
Raul at that time to meet him?
A. Yes. I told him I was -- you know, I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1813
would be back there.
Q. Did he give you a -- any telephone
number to contact him?
A. No. I never had any contact.
Q. How were you going, in other words,
were you going to set up a certain date to meet
him back at the Neptune; is that correct?
A. Yes. I remember one time we met in the
Neptune and then we went on somewhere else. I
think we went to a restaurant but it was not --
Q. Okay. Now, when you met Raul the
third time, he knew then that you were looking
for some -- your term travel papers, am I
correct, sir?
A. Yes. That's correct.
Q. And he never did tell you you would
have to pay him anything to get the travel
papers?
A. No. It was kind of quid pro quo. He
was going to -- sometime during the
conversation he was going to furnish me with
the -- what he called the travel documents and
a certain amount of money and he didn't --
Q. What was he going -- what was he going
to get out of it for doing this?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1814
A. Well, I was going to take some things
across the border for him in the back seat of
the Plymouth.
Q. He had already asked you that if you
would take -- if you would take some things
across the border, he would help you get in
your term travel papers, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you agreed to do that?
A. Yes. I was willing to do it, yes.
Q. When you say across the border, where
across the border were you going to take them?
A. Windsor, Canada, that's right across
the river from Detroit.
Q. Okay. When you say some things, you're
talking about some drugs or guns or what?
A. Well, I assumed it was drugs.
Q. And he didn't tell you specifically
what it would be?
A. No, he didn't say.
Q. And you agreed to do that if he would
help you get what you called travel papers,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And this was on the third visit with
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1815
him?
A. Well, somewhere along there. I can't
remember just what was said on each visit. I
would say we had maybe five visits altogether.
Q. Okay. And then you agreed to do this?
And let me ask you this: Whatever you were
going to take across, did you actually do that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was it something in boxes, bags or
what?
A. Plastic bags.
Q. Okay. And could you tell what it was
or did you ask what it was or did he tell you
what it was?
A. Well, no, he had me meet him in Windsor
on a certain day. I think it was a train
station -- near the train station. And he came
up. He showed up in time. I was sitting in
the car and he showed up at the meeting and he
just got in the car and directed me to a
different area of Windsor and then he got in
the back of the car.
In the Plymouth you could raise the
back seat up, and it would come unhinged. And
behind the back seat there was a bunch of
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
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springs back there, and that's what he did. He
apparently was familiar with the inside of it
and he put some -- I think it was about three
packages. I didn't turn around to look at him,
but I did notice something out of the back, you
know, the rearview mirror.
Q. Okay. Well now, when you met, where
were you when he put this in the back of the
car?
A. I was sitting in the front seat.
Q. But where were you though? Were you in
Montreal or Windsor?
A. We was in Windsor, yes.
Q. All right. And you had had an
agreement to meet him at some place there?
A. Yes. Near -- I think it was near the
train station or bus station. I think it was a
train station.
Q. Okay. And what time of day were you
going to meet him there?
A. It was some time in the afternoon, but
I don't know just exactly what time.
Q. All you were going to do was just drive
it across the border?
A. Yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1817
Q. And into where?
A. Into Detroit.
Q. Okay. And what did you -- what did he
tell you after you drove it across the border
that he would do then?
A. Well, I would take the material across
and then once we got across the border, he
would give me a passport and some money and he
would go his way and I would go my way.
Q. When you met him there, Mr. Ray, was he
driving something or was he walking or just
standing there, was -- what was he in? How did
he get there?
A. I was just sitting in the car and he
walked up and that was it.
Q. And he had something in his hands, some
bags or --
A. He had an attache case, that's all he
had that I saw.
Q. And he -- did he put the case behind
your seat or just open the case up and put
something behind the seat, which was it?
A. No, first he directed me to another
street where he -- and he got in the back of
the car and took the stuff out of the attache
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1818
case and got the seat up. I'm not talking
about the seat you sit on, I'm talking about
the back rest. And he put it in there and then
we left.
Q. Okay. Had you ever been to Windsor
before?
A. I think I went through there when I
went to Montreal earlier in 1960, 1959 or
whatever.
Q. And then did he get in the car and you
go across the border with him in the car and
with the substance in the back?
A. No. He got in the car and he told me
to let him off before we got to the -- we went
through the tunnel. There is two ways you can
get from Windsor to Detroit. One is the tunnel
and one is the bridge, and he had me let him
off. He asked me to meet him on the other
side. So I let him off and he said give him a
while. I think he got a cab and I assume he
got a cab or somebody hauled him across, and
then I went through the customs and I picked
him up on the other side. And then when I
picked him up, he directed me to a place, some
side street.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1819
Q. In Detroit?
A. Yes. And then he -- he took this
material out of the back seat and he told me
to -- you know, we was going to do the same
thing again.
Q. Did he tell you when?
A. Pardon?
Q. Did he tell you when?
A. Yes, right then.
Q. Oh, okay. The same day?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Okay. Well now, did he go back to the
same place where you were originally when he
came up with the attache and put it in the car
and meet him there again at the same place?
A. Did he go back to the same -- you're
talking about --
Q. Let me back up. Okay. You drove the
car alone across the border from Windsor to
Detroit, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And he met you over there?
A. Yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1820
Q. And you said he -- and you said he said
we are going to do the same thing again.
A. Yes.
Q. And did that mean go back to Windsor
and come back across again?
A. Yes.
Q. And my question is, did you go back to
Windsor and meet him again at the same place
that you had met him earlier?
A. No, I don't think -- he would meet me
on the -- he would get a cab or something and
meet me over there.
Q. Well, I'm what saying is, did you go
back to the same place to meet him back in
Windsor to get another --
A. Yes. We went to the same street.
Q. Where you met him earlier?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then again you went across
the border again and the same thing in the same
manner that you did earlier, right?
A. Yes, I assume the first time was a dry
run so we did the same thing but I -- it was
other problems on the second trip.
Q. What problems did you have?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD (901) 529-1999
1821
A. Well, on this -- on the second time we
went across the bridge instead of the tunnel.
Q. Did he go with you this time?
A. No, he didn't go with me.
Q. Still didn't go with you?
A. No. So -- well, anyway, when I got to
the customs house, I had purchased a TV, a
small TV when I was in Montreal to watch. I
thought I might be up there for a while. But
anyway when I got to the customs house, I
started thinking about the TV and I thought I
better declare it because it's -- I think
there's a tax on it and you have to declare
everything. I think there is a sign up there
that says it.
So anyway I pulled into the customs
house and told them I had a television set I
had purchased in Montreal. They asked me if I |